Just a thought on ride rehabs and new rides.

[Future Guy]

Honestly, I just want a show at the Energy pavilion that is really about the future of Energy and not just a commercial for the oil industry. It'd be nice if it didn't date itself with current pop culture references, as well (kind of silly to give an expensive show like that a built-in expiration date) but if it's not too overt I can live with it.

[napastoy]

Honestly, I just want a show at the Energy pavilion that is really about the future of Energy and not just a commercial for the oil industry. It'd be nice if it didn't date itself with current pop culture references, as well (kind of silly to give an expensive show like that a built-in expiration date) but if it's not too overt I can live with it.

Good luck. Everything opens or gets redone with non-essential characters or worthless commercial add-ons. All Innoventions turned into was a mass Disney corporate flea market.

That's why every time they say "refurb" nowadays I cringe. They could so easily make this a "Green" Pavilion with real attractions and more relevant information. We need someone to do it who fully understands the concept and dynamics of sustainability...don't know if that's possible with Disney brass the way it is right now.

[Sharonofwindham]

I tend to be very nostalgic when it comes to attractions, however, I love the comedy in the new show. It's been a while since I've seen it, but if I remember correctly, they included a lot from the original show in the new one.

[DisneyNut2009]

The new Tiki Room is an abomination unto the Lord.

It is not!

They could easily bring back the original Tiki Room. It's not like it requires much changes either. I hope one day they return it back to its original glory.

Sorry, but it cannot be done for several reasons.

1) The original show was far too unpopular at WDW and had to be taken away.

2) All of the plumbing for the enchanted fountain was completely demolished and removed to make room for Uhoa.

I tend to be very nostalgic when it comes to attractions, however, I love the comedy in the new show. It's been a while since I've seen it, but if I remember correctly, they included a lot from the original show in the new one.

I totally agree. Too many purists get very easily bent out of shape over it and need to develop a sense of humor and learn to be more respectful of the Imagineers.

In this case, the Extinct Attractions Club's DVD documentary about the history of WDW's Tiki Room is required (yes, required) viewing, especially for the "glass is always half-empty" individuals like Captain Schneemo.

[noledawg]

I think it's just a matter of when we grew up in Disney. I think that if they took Splash Mountain and turned it into Splash Mountain featuring Bolt, I would hate it and probably not want to ride it because it lost what I had loved about it.

That's true to some extent, but a lot of objections to the new stuff are because they are poorly-themed or just generally ill-conceived, at a very fundamental level. Singing fish in Future World, monster comedians in Tomorrowland, an attraction about imagination that tries to limit your mind instead of freeing it, etc.

Nostalgia is certainly a factor, but we shouldn't just forgive Disney when they make poor decisions. People love to trot out the "Disneyland is not a museum" quote, but you can't justify everything by simply saying "change is good". Good change is good. Bad change sucks.

As for Horizons, most of us have heard the rumors about the sinkhole and such, but I don't think any proof has been presented. It seems unlikely to me that they would built another multi-million dollar attraction on top of a sinkhole if that were the only problem, but I could be wrong.

The Captain says it best. What irritates folks like me, 37 and having grown up on Disney, is when the Imagineers give it a half-effort, throwing something up to fill the space and sell merchandise.

The change from Kitchen Kaberet to Food Rocks is a perfect example. Well, it wasn't so much about merchandise as it was about needing to replace the message of food groups, as that had become outdated. What went up in its place, however, IMO, was deplorable. Flat, stale cutouts, with cheesy imitations and lame jokes. How on earth did this pass quality control? It's that type of refurb that drives me, and others like me, crazy.

[DisneyNut2009]

I think it's just a matter of when we grew up in Disney. I think that if they took Splash Mountain and turned it into Splash Mountain featuring Bolt, I would hate it and probably not want to ride it because it lost what I had loved about it.

That's true to some extent, but a lot of objections to the new stuff are because they are poorly-themed or just generally ill-conceived, at a very fundamental level. Singing fish in Future World, monster comedians in Tomorrowland, an attraction about imagination that tries to limit your mind instead of freeing it, etc.

Nostalgia is certainly a factor, but we shouldn't just forgive Disney when they make poor decisions. People love to trot out the "Disneyland is not a museum" quote, but you can't justify everything by simply saying "change is good". Good change is good. Bad change sucks.

As for Horizons, most of us have heard the rumors about the sinkhole and such, but I don't think any proof has been presented. It seems unlikely to me that they would built another multi-million dollar attraction on top of a sinkhole if that were the only problem, but I could be wrong.

The Captain says it best. What irritates folks like me, 37 and having grown up on Disney, is when the Imagineers give it a half-effort, throwing something up to fill the space and sell merchandise.

The change from Kitchen Kaberet to Food Rocks is a perfect example. Well, it wasn't so much about merchandise as it was about needing to replace the message of food groups, as that had become outdated. What went up in its place, however, IMO, was deplorable. Flat, stale cutouts, with cheesy imitations and lame jokes. How on earth did this pass quality control? It's that type of refurb that drives me, and others like me, crazy.

Just because you think something is bad, poorly-themed, ill-concieved, etc. does not mean that it is true. Everyone has their own opinions and tastes and should be respected for it.

Not everybody is going to agree with you folks, so get used to it.

[noledawg]

That's true to some extent, but a lot of objections to the new stuff are because they are poorly-themed or just generally ill-conceived, at a very fundamental level. Singing fish in Future World, monster comedians in Tomorrowland, an attraction about imagination that tries to limit your mind instead of freeing it, etc.

Nostalgia is certainly a factor, but we shouldn't just forgive Disney when they make poor decisions. People love to trot out the "Disneyland is not a museum" quote, but you can't justify everything by simply saying "change is good". Good change is good. Bad change sucks.

As for Horizons, most of us have heard the rumors about the sinkhole and such, but I don't think any proof has been presented. It seems unlikely to me that they would built another multi-million dollar attraction on top of a sinkhole if that were the only problem, but I could be wrong.

The Captain says it best. What irritates folks like me, 37 and having grown up on Disney, is when the Imagineers give it a half-effort, throwing something up to fill the space and sell merchandise.

The change from Kitchen Kaberet to Food Rocks is a perfect example. Well, it wasn't so much about merchandise as it was about needing to replace the message of food groups, as that had become outdated. What went up in its place, however, IMO, was deplorable. Flat, stale cutouts, with cheesy imitations and lame jokes. How on earth did this pass quality control? It's that type of refurb that drives me, and others like me, crazy.

Just because you think something is bad, poorly-themed, ill-concieved, etc. does not mean that it is true. Everyone has their own opinions and tastes and should be respected for it.

Not everybody is going to agree with you folks, so get used to it.

Wow, way to get offended.

[noledawg]

The Captain says it best. What irritates folks like me, 37 and having grown up on Disney, is when the Imagineers give it a half-effort, throwing something up to fill the space and sell merchandise.

The change from Kitchen Kaberet to Food Rocks is a perfect example. Well, it wasn't so much about merchandise as it was about needing to replace the message of food groups, as that had become outdated. What went up in its place, however, IMO, was deplorable. Flat, stale cutouts, with cheesy imitations and lame jokes. How on earth did this pass quality control? It's that type of refurb that drives me, and others like me, crazy.

Just because you think something is bad, poorly-themed, ill-concieved, etc. does not mean that it is true. Everyone has their own opinions and tastes and should be respected for it.

Not everybody is going to agree with you folks, so get used to it.

Wow, way to get offended.

And for what it's worth, I never suggested I was right and others were wrong. I expressed my opinion. How about if you express yours? For the sake of civil discourse, I would be interested. Thanks.

[kcookiebaker]

Did you all hear that someone wants to take that gorgeous, YES, my opinion, and back off angry person, I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are, without your attacking other posters, so that said, Did you hear that there was talk about removing it? GeeWhiz, next thing you know it's a "piece of history" pin.

And as for changes, old and new, angry person, it does help to have perspective that comes from time and years spent visiting the parks. It's an investment of time and emotion. I don't think Imagineers need your protecting...in fact, with the new Disney/Pixar folks at the helm many of those tacky "replacement attractions" are being improved.

Please stop the attack on shared opinions and offer some constructive thoughts of your own.

[Captain Schnemo]

Too many purists get very easily bent out of shape over it and need to develop a sense of humor and learn to be more respectful of the Imagineers.

It's not typically the Imagineers that take the heat, it's the empty suits that give them their marching orders.

As for respect, I will respect Disney when they start respecting me. The new Tiki Room actually mocks the old one, making it clear where Disney stands. If you liked their old product, not only are you not going to get it any more, Disney thinks you're stupid for liking what they used to sell and they wish you would go away.

Fair enough.

As for opinions on the Internet...just imagine that every single message on every single forum is prefaced with the phrase "In my opinion". That's all you're ever going to find here and berating people for stating what they believe is a pointless waste of energy that stymies actual discussion.

In terms of the subject of this thread, the great sadness to me is people defending Disney in depressing ways...

"Oh, Disney needs to do this because of some issue with plumbing, or a necessary marketing tie-in, or because they can eliminate an hourly employee, or they've lost a sponsor, etc., etc."

Yes, those are all reasons and explanations, so there's nothing wrong with discussing them, but actually using them as excuses is another issue entirely.

Disney has succeeded in getting people to not only expect less, but to actually defend decisions that result in a worse experience for the guest.

That's the company's great victory over Walt's philosophy.

[noledawg]

Too many purists get very easily bent out of shape over it and need to develop a sense of humor and learn to be more respectful of the Imagineers.

It's not typically the Imagineers that take the heat, it's the empty suits that give them their marching orders.

As for respect, I will respect Disney when they start respecting me. The new Tiki Room actually mocks the old one, making it clear where Disney stands. If you liked their old product, not only are you not going to get it any more, Disney thinks you're stupid for liking what they used to sell and they wish you would go away.

Fair enough.

As for opinions on the Internet...just imagine that every single message on every single forum is prefaced with the phrase "In my opinion". That's all you're ever going to find here and berating people for stating what they believe is a pointless waste of energy that stymies actual discussion.

In terms of the subject of this thread, the great sadness to me is people defending Disney in depressing ways...

"Oh, Disney needs to do this because of some issue with plumbing, or a necessary marketing tie-in, or because they can eliminate an hourly employee, or they've lost a sponsor, etc., etc."

Yes, those are all reasons and explanations, so there's nothing wrong with discussing them, but actually using them as excuses is another issue entirely.

Disney has succeeded in getting people to not only expect less, but to actually defend decisions that result in a worse experience for the guest.

That's the company's great victory over Walt's philosophy.

Captain, I think you've got it. Sometimes there is a gap between the philosophy and the execution, and it can be huge. That's what's so disappointing. Not always, but consistently. And I think that's the hope with Lasseter and co in charge. Perhaps the philosophy and the execution will come together once again.

[agingerbugg]

First, I'd like to know if you are in bed with Michael Eisner, DisneyNut2009? You seem to praise all the changes he made.

But enough snarkiness.

On the topic of the Tiki Room, Foxxfur wrote a post on "Passport to Dreams Old & New" that puts the show in a whole new light. I am not saying that she is correct in her assessment, but if she is, then it makes me respect the imagineers for their ingenuity in dealing with the Eisner-era stuffed shirts.

[Captain Schnemo]

That's an interesting analysis, and it seems entirely plausible...but ultimately I don't want to see internal Disney politics played out in an attraction. It's just too inside baseball.

For the same reason, almost no one anywhere could possibly care about how the Pixar section of the Studios looks a bit like the Pixar studios in California.

Who cares about how the sausage is made? I've said this many times, but this is why the Studios concept is fundamentally flawed as a theme park motif, and why almost every attraction people enjoy abandons the theme...the Tower being the most obvious example.

If they are going to take digs at management, they should be subtle things that us nerds can obsess and chuckle over, not the fundamental conflict driving the show.

Little kids don't get sarcasm or irony or post-modernism. It is wasted on them. And once they grow older and re-examine the things they liked in their youth, wouldn't it be nice if the company that advertises "magic" provided them with ideas and concepts that would inspire free-flowing imagination and deep thought, as opposed to, as ginger said, snarkiness?

In short, stop talking about adventure, and just allow us to have a frickin' adventure already!

In the larger picture, I don't fault the Imagineers, because they are rarely told to make something wonderful, so it is impossible for them to fail at that task.

But while I accept that the root of the problem is management and the ideological death spiral of "synergy", I have to say that most attractions don't really impress me, even within the constraints they've been given. I don't have the same reverence for the recent crop of Imagineers that many people do.

For example, the creators of some children's shows have used the constraints of the medium to great effect, making the final product stronger. But unless the creators are extremely talented, even if they do indeed take pride in their work, the final result is probably not worth a first, much less a second, look.

It takes talent to succeed at the intellectual judo of turning a weakness into a strength, instead of just complaining about it.

[cousininmiami]

I just have two words.... TIKI Room. It's horrible!

[DisneyNut2009]

That's an interesting analysis, and it seems entirely plausible...but ultimately I don't want to see internal Disney politics played out in an attraction. It's just too inside baseball.

That's one of the things that just can't STAND about the Disney fan community--they complain about every little thing to the point where it just gets annoying!

Who cares about how the sausage is made? I've said this many times, but this is why the Studios concept is fundamentally flawed as a theme park motif, and why almost every attraction people enjoy abandons the theme...the Tower being the most obvious example.

Stop saying that the non-fanatical guests are dumb. They are not!

Quit trying to be such a know-it-all alpha-male already!

Little kids don't get sarcasm or irony or post-modernism. It is wasted on them. And once they grow older and re-examine the things they liked in their youth, wouldn't it be nice if the company that advertises "magic" provided them with ideas and concepts that would inspire free-flowing imagination and deep thought, as opposed to, as ginger said, snarkiness?

Well, some people like snarkiness and see nothing wrong with it! You're the one who's being snarky, Cap'n!

In the larger picture, I don't fault the Imagineers...

Well, everyone else does, especially that god-awful one-sided Re-Imagineering blog.

But while I accept that the root of the problem is management and the ideological death spiral of "synergy", I have to say that most attractions don't really impress me, even within the constraints they've been given. I don't have the same reverence for the recent crop of Imagineers that many people do.

WHAT?! You really do hate the second-generation Imagineers?! Well, then, you're not a Disney fan at all! You're a very bad man with just as big an attitude problem as MerlinJones, Mr. Banks, etc.!

It takes talent to succeed at the intellectual judo of turning a weakness into a strength, instead of just complaining about it.

No, Cap'n. YOU are the one who needs to quit complaining and enjoy things for what they are, stop ruining everything for everyone else and let folks like yours truly express their honest views/opinions without getting bashed, shot-down or labeled as an apologist, corporate sympathizer, sheep, etc.!