Monorail Expansion

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rdeacon
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Post by rdeacon » Jan Tue 18, 2005 10:09 am

QuickGold wrote: Disney parks just doesnt have that kind of money around.
I find this excuse hard to swallow, especially since WDW alone pull in 609 million last year. Not to mention they have spent tons of money on rehabs and new attractions for the 50th celebration.
My guess is the buses were a cheaper alternative since they had to build the roads anyway to accommodate the traffic of visitors.


Rich

Disney Financials:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/investor ... orts/2004/

Pick the Financials -> Walt Disney Company and Subsidiaries -> download the pdf
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Post by eagle4life69 » Jan Tue 18, 2005 11:31 am

Just click Here instead of his link above to view reports its faster

http://corporate.disney.go.com/investor ... annual.pdf




I extracted it from there source Code

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Post by QuickGold » Jan Tue 18, 2005 1:11 pm

If monorail expansion is such a great idea, why hasn't it been done yet? They installed the track back when Epcot opened. Nearly 23 years later nothing else has been added. There's a reason for it.
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Post by pgreger » Jan Tue 18, 2005 2:57 pm

js3901 wrote:You're kidding, right? WDW makes a few million per year just on ticket sales and resort reservations. And not to mention concession/sourvenir sales. While there is alot of overhead costs (maintainence of parks, payroll of CMs, etc), I think the Disney Co. (and Disney Theme Parks in particular) are not in danger of going under any time soon. The sooner we get the money-grubbers out of the executive offices, things should turn around...
Eisner's probably got enough spare change rattling around in his cars' ashtrays and in the cushions of his couches to build a monorail that connects every Disney park around the world!!! :x Pony up you stingy so & so!!!!!

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Post by subsonic » Jan Tue 18, 2005 7:31 pm

QuickGold wrote:If monorail expansion is such a great idea, why hasn't it been done yet? They installed the track back when Epcot opened. Nearly 23 years later nothing else has been added. There's a reason for it.
I'm sure you're correct. There would be a reason for them not to do it.
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Post by QuickGold » Jan Wed 19, 2005 2:11 pm

subsonic wrote:There would be a reason for them not to do it.
Exactly my point and it's a money issue.
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Post by subsonic » Jan Thu 20, 2005 12:50 pm

Just sucks that they don't
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Disneylad

Post by Disneylad » Jan Tue 25, 2005 11:12 pm

It is indeed--or at least, it was indeed--a money issue.

In 1985 dollars, monorail extension construction was estimated at roughly $6M for every quarter-mile of beamway. Given the size of the property... that adds up painfully fast. For example, to extend from the EPCOT Center monorail station to the Celebration Golf Club (a distance of 9.56 miles) you're looking at roughly $229M in 1985 dollars.

Adjust for inflation and you're pressed with the decision... "Do we extend the monorail, or do we build two... maybe three E-ticket Attractions?"

I agree that I'd love a variety of useful extensions to the existing system, but I'm not sure that I would choose monorail over, say, Expedition Everest. Maybe I would. Dunno.

Whether finance is still the dominant factor in this, I have no idea.
Last edited by Disneylad on Jan Sun 30, 2005 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by js3901 » Jan Wed 26, 2005 3:06 am

Disneylad wrote:It is indeed--or at least, it was indeed--a money issue.

In 1985 dollars, monorail extension construction was estimated at roughly $6M for every quarter-mile of beamway. Given the size of the property... that adds up painfully fast. For example, to extend from the EPCOT Center monorail station to the Celebration Golf Club (a distance of 9.56 miles) you're looking at roughly $57.36M in 1985 dollars.

Adjust for inflation and you're pressed with the decision... "Do we extend the monorail, or do we build one... maybe two E-ticket Attractions?"

I agree that I'd love a variety of useful extensions to the existing system, but I'm not sure that I would choose monorail over, say, Expedition Everest. Maybe I would. Dunno.

Whether finance is still the dominant factor in this, I have no idea.
I still think that the money excuse is lame. No one ever said the monorail had to go EVERYWHERE (like the example here of the Celebration Golf Club). While it might be NICE to expand te monorail there, it's probably not feasible. Mainly because most people don't go to WDW to play golf. Most people go to WDW to enjoy the parks.

If the monorail went to each of the 4 parks, possibly Downtown Disney area, and MAYBE the water parks (all the most popular areas), how much could it cost? How much does WDW make in one year? How much fuel, maintainence, pollution could they cut down on by taking a few buses out of service? How much can they save per year by having fewer drivers of said buses and instead have HALF as many monorail conductors? How soon would they see a return on the investment?

And even IF it would cost more to build the tracks and such than what they make per year, do you think there's a bank in the world that would DENY giving WDW a LOAN to build, especially since they could charge just about ANY interest rate they want...?

It's more economical to expand the monorail lines.

I still say it's not a money issue. It's all the logistics in bringing it to fruition.

Disneylad

Post by Disneylad » Jan Wed 26, 2005 4:30 am

Well, I never said the money explanation was a good excuse. You're right; it's not. :)


As for the money excuse being something that couldn't possibly matter to Disney, you might want to visit Disneyland's Tower of Terror or compare Anaheim's The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh with WDW's, or visit the Walt Disney Studios Park in Paris before you question the likelihood of Disney making a disappointing product just to save money.

(Even Mr. E thought that Anaheim's Tower of Terror was hugely disappointing, and had to be reminded by an opening-crew Imagineer that it was his flunky, Paul Pressler, who cut the budget. )

But I can speak to a few of your specific points:

First, the WDW-logo buses are non-polluting, because they run exclusively on CNG and their engines exhaust clean water vapor. So cutting the buses won't impact pollution much. In fact, one study done by the Reedy Creek Improvement District (aka Disney) indicated that the bus system is less polluting than the monorails because coal is burned to generate the monorail's electricity.


Second, I picked the Celebration example because (a) I think you can make a strong argument that Celebration--which is probably as close to Walt Disney's REAL idea of EPCOT as we're ever going to see--is an obvious candidate for connection to the theme parks; and (b) the golf club was the first street address that I could remember when I was using MapQuest to get the distance from the EPCOT Center monorail station to "somewhere else on property."

(As an aside, I would agree with you that most people who GO to WDW go for the parks, but some of the people who LIVE at WDW (Celebration) certainly live there because of the golf facilities.)

Third, don't think for a fraction of a second that the monorail system is inexpensive to maintain, to operate (think "electric bill from hell"), or to train.

Fourth, not all of the buses labeled as "WDW Buses" in the "WDW Transportation System" are actually owned or operated by Disney, nor is their passenger insurance paid for by Disney. Ask any Disneyland Cast Member with some seniority the economic benefit of not having to carry the passenger insurance on "Disney" buses. Contrastingly, the monorails are bankrolled by Disney all the way.

Anyway, enough of this. The point I think that's the most salient is *not* that Disney can't afford to expand the monorail system.

The point is that in order to keep overall corporate profits high enough to keep the corporate stock price where the corporate executives want it, Disney can only spend a certain amount annually of the tens of billions of dollars in cash that it already has in the bank, on-hand. Once they determine what that amount is, the question turns on how those dollars will be spent. :)

Disneylad

Post by Disneylad » Jan Sun 30, 2005 12:56 am

By the way, my apologies, but I did the math wrong, so I just updated my previous post. :oops:

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Post by js3901 » Jan Sun 30, 2005 12:39 pm

rdeacon88 wrote:
QuickGold wrote: Disney parks just doesnt have that kind of money around.
I find this excuse hard to swallow, especially since WDW alone pull in 609 million last year. Not to mention they have spent tons of money on rehabs and new attractions for the 50th celebration.
My guess is the buses were a cheaper alternative since they had to build the roads anyway to accommodate the traffic of visitors.


Rich

Disney Financials:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/investor ... orts/2004/

Pick the Financials -> Walt Disney Company and Subsidiaries -> download the pdf
for all the parks and resorts both foreign and domestic, the Disney Company had a 2004 increase of 1.3BILLION DOLLARS to a total of 7.8BILLION DOLLARS. Save for overhead costs, the figure of 609 MILLION is a half-way decent profit for the company. Even if it would cost roughly $229 Million on 1985 dollars, that's still leave the company with 380 Million as a profit. Evough to fill Eisner's bathtub with cash and let him swim around in it.

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Post by G2-4T » Jan Sun 30, 2005 1:07 pm

A side note on the buses - I don't believe they are all CNG powered. I have worked in transit [not to mention ride it daily] and the buses they are using are not CNG models. The older RTS style ones would be costly to retrofit at best and I'm not sure if it is even pratical to bother - and they are getting these ones second/third/etc. hand from systems around the country when they retire them. The newer Nova buses and brand new Gillig or New Flyer buses are not the CNG models offered and they would not bother to retro-fit something that is brand new when they could just buy CNG or Hybrid buses that are on the market today. They may however be using high-ethanol fuel which is better for the environment than the usual fuel...
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Post by G2-4T » Jan Sun 30, 2005 1:54 pm

And good call on the finances - that is a bit of change to work with... It all comes down to how much the big shots want to invest in the parks [and where in the parks] and how much they want for themselves. The evils of big corp. thinking...

On another monorail note - it sounds like the big stations [TTC, MK, Epcot - not sure on the resorts] are about to get automated gates, I would suppose to speed boarding and relieve at least one employee at the station now that there won't be manual gates to open
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Post by rdeacon » Jan Mon 31, 2005 11:32 am

Just some more information on this topic.

Disney current has about 350 buses and over 1000 drivers.


I was just there last week and asked a bus driver for some facts....


Rich
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