Declining by Degrees: Scorecard

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » Apr Fri 04, 2008 4:16 pm

I think what Kevin Yee and other disney blogs are doing is very important. People who visit the parks for the first time, don't realize what they're missing because they never got to experience it in the first place. The only way Disney will do anything about their problems is if more and more people realize the problems.

I'm beginning to think that people have fun in Disney parks because THEY ARE Disney parks and people are expected to have fun in them. I don't understand how anyone could fall in love with today's Disney. We over-praise them for successes which show the wonders they are capable of, yet for every success, there are ten failures.

Even the people who agree with the article simply note it and continue to go, so...

I'm going to WDW this summer mostly as a farewell visit, because I don't think I can handle going back again until they do some major fixing. I'll miss World Showcase and the classics that remain such as CoP and HM, but overall, Disney has changed so much for the worse, it's really not worth going back. I'm sure more and more first-time visitors feel the same way too, ("THIS is Disney World!?

"). As time goes by, it's only going to get more and more difficult for Disney to pull out from this nose dive. Eisner was only a small battle in what will be a very long DisneyWar.

This isn't to say I won't go visit The Wizarding World of Harry Potter

What Disney really needs right now is competition.

edit - I've only been to WDW and that's what I'm referring to when I say "Disney parks". WDW seems to be hit the hardest while the others are somewhat better off (although they may be headed the way of WDW).

DIAC1987 · Post by **DIAC1987** » Apr Fri 04, 2008 4:52 pm

"So how is this right? Any third party company can come in an fleece the guest? Also since Yak and Yeti are within the confines of the park the way they treat guest is a direct representation on Disney. And 99% of the guest do not know, or care that its a 3rd party. If Disney invites 3rd party hosts into the park, they are responsible for them."

Its still an unfair example he used. Whether he meant to or not, there are plenty of ways to find cheaper food in Disney, and he just happens to use the most expensive quick-service spot in perhaps all the parks. I'm not saying eating at Disney is cheap, but you can find ways to feed a whole family without spending ridiculous amounts like the one seen in the receipt.

Yak and Yeti is NOT the only place to find food in Animal Kingdom, there's plenty more (and the food is better too---Yak and Yeti isn't exactly amazing by any standards...)

"I don't know if you been to the parks that late but they are always crowded. Also the point is not for Disney to save money but to extend the value of the ticket. Ticket prices have steadly gone up. Kevin's point is you get less for you money now."

Working at Disney I can tell you that the hours have remained consistent for years, NOW there are complaints about it? Magic Kingdom I agree has been closing earlier, and its because of the hard-ticket events and such, but the other parks have remained consistent for a long time. Epcot has closed at 9:00 for as long as I can remember, and they've improved upon their closing times by allowing some of the Future World attractions to remain open until 9:00.

"Crowd control is a sad excuse not to have a parade, especially in a park blessed with size. The walkways on Epcot have plenty of room to stage a parade. Also if you follow that logic Magic Kingdom should never have a parade. Navigating the crowds during a parade is always a challenge, especially up main street. Mickey's Jammin' Jungle Parade in Animal Kingdom is even worse."

Magic Kingdom, unlike Epcot, offers multiple multiple pathways to navigate while the parade is going on. On the other hand, the World Showcase doesn't offer as many options on where to walk. My opinion...

"Kevin isn't accusing Disney of being lazy. He's saying that he does not like the Fastpass system because it creates an inequity among guests. Fastpass doesn't create ride capacity out of this air. It benefits those who know how to use it at the expense of those who don't or choose not to use it. That's really not something you can argue against.

As someone who uses Fast Pass, I don't mind the system. But I see his point. Also, I have seen people abuse FP pretty badly. I do think the parks would be better off without it for many of the reasons Kevin mentioned in his article."

Animal Kingdom hit record numbers in 2007. The other three parks have been increasing in attendance for several years in a row now. The FastPass system not only is beneficial but its necessary, otherwise the queue lines will reach insane, unheard of amounts. Yes, the fastPass should be taken away from some attractions, but overall it benefits those that cannot wait in line.

Imagine being a guest, with only one chance to ever visit Disney World because of money reasons, and not be able to go on all the rides because the lines were too long. With the FastPass system they can get more bang for their buck, especially since they may never be able to return.

"These areas still exist. But they are less common than they once were. If the trend continues indefinitely, they will become rather hard to find."

Now we are being just nitpicky. Now we are trying to reach out and find reasons to be disappointed in Disney. Right off the bat I can name you three very large potions of Epcot that can be used for relaxation and taking a break from the day. The ENTIRE Tom Sawyer Island is a great escape as well.

"He didn't indicate this was a one-time event. He said "lately" leading one to believe that there has been an increased number of occurrences over multiple visits."

Working for Disney I can tell you that it was for just ESPN: The Weekend. I don't see blimps throughout the other parts of the year.

"I think Kevin's main point is most of the changes have been subtle ones that whittle away at the core of what made Disney great. Its all the little details that count and make Disney, um well Disney. Disney needs to wake up and realize this."

I think the article is reaching out to find reasons to complain. Yes, Disney is not how it used to be. Yes, Disney has become a lot more commercial that before. Yes, Disney does not spend much money on certain parks (Epcot especially). In spite of all this, the article was reaching, just looking for any small insignificant reason to complain, which rather irks me. Did he ask why there was a blimp passing by Disney? No, it was just an assumption that Disney has untightened its grip on maintaining the magic.

Working for Disney I can tell you that its not the same, but some of these complaints I find in the article are rather stupid.

I also wonder if he e-mailed this article to Disney as a full-fledge complaint.......

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 7:10 am

secondstar wrote:Interesting insights. Still, you'll never convince me to give up my FastPass. I have a 4-year-old and FastPass is indispensible!!!

That's a good point. We're taking a 3-year-old in September and plan to FP just about everything. If we have to wait in stand by, we probably won't do it because the child doesn't have the patience for lines.

For myself, I like FP. But I can see how the parks as a whole are better off without it.

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 7:50 am

DIAC1987 wrote:
"So how is this right? Any third party company can come in an fleece the guest? Also since Yak and Yeti are within the confines of the park the way they treat guest is a direct representation on Disney. And 99% of the guest do not know, or care that its a 3rd party. If Disney invites 3rd party hosts into the park, they are responsible for them."

Its still an unfair example he used. Whether he meant to or not, there are plenty of ways to find cheaper food in Disney, and he just happens to use the most expensive quick-service spot in perhaps all the parks. I'm not saying eating at Disney is cheap, but you can find ways to feed a whole family without spending ridiculous amounts like the one seen in the receipt.

Yak and Yeti is NOT the only place to find food in Animal Kingdom, there's plenty more (and the food is better too---Yak and Yeti isn't exactly amazing by any standards...)

That's not the point. The point is that gouging is taking place on Disney property. Most tourists are looking around for the best deal when they are in the parks. And they don't know one eatery from the next. Kevin's not suggesting that these prices are indicative of Disney prices across the board. But it's a perfectly legit example of price gouging.

DIAC1987 wrote:

"I don't know if you been to the parks that late but they are always crowded. Also the point is not for Disney to save money but to extend the value of the ticket. Ticket prices have steadly gone up. Kevin's point is you get less for you money now."

Working at Disney I can tell you that the hours have remained consistent for years, NOW there are complaints about it? Magic Kingdom I agree has been closing earlier, and its because of the hard-ticket events and such, but the other parks have remained consistent for a long time. Epcot has closed at 9:00 for as long as I can remember, and they've improved upon their closing times by allowing some of the Future World attractions to remain open until 9:00.

People have been complaining about it for a long time. The complaints have gotten louder because for some people the hard tocket events are the straw that broke the camel's back.

Just because you can't remember back to the times when the park's kept longer hours, doesn't invalidate the points of the people who can remember it.

From their point of view, Disney increased the price of tickets and decreased the value of those tickets by shortening their operating hours. Now, Disney expects them to pay extra on top of the higher-priced tickets to get back what they once offered for free.

Of course people are complaining.

DIAC1987 wrote:
"Kevin isn't accusing Disney of being lazy. He's saying that he does not like the Fastpass system because it creates an inequity among guests. Fastpass doesn't create ride capacity out of this air. It benefits those who know how to use it at the expense of those who don't or choose not to use it. That's really not something you can argue against.

As someone who uses Fast Pass, I don't mind the system. But I see his point. Also, I have seen people abuse FP pretty badly. I do think the parks would be better off without it for many of the reasons Kevin mentioned in his article."[/i]

Animal Kingdom hit record numbers in 2007. The other three parks have been increasing in attendance for several years in a row now. The FastPass system not only is beneficial but its necessary, otherwise the queue lines will reach insane, unheard of amounts. Yes, the fastPass should be taken away from some attractions, but overall it benefits those that cannot wait in line.

Imagine being a guest, with only one chance to ever visit Disney World because of money reasons, and not be able to go on all the rides because the lines were too long. With the FastPass system they can get more bang for their buck, especially since they may never be able to return.

Explain to me how FP benefits these visitors.

FP does not create capacity. It does not shorten lines.

It shortens waits for those who know how to use it. The one-time visitor you described is less likely to know how to use it than the yearly visitor or the Orlando local.

I know people who went on that one-time trip to Disney who were upset because they didn't understand why Disney was letting people cut in line while they were stuck in a stand-by line that didn't move. Those people wouldn't go back to WDW if you paid them.

If you think that FP benefits the casual tourist, you don't understand how the system works.

DIAC1987 wrote:

"These areas still exist. But they are less common than they once were. If the trend continues indefinitely, they will become rather hard to find."

Now we are being just nitpicky. Now we are trying to reach out and find reasons to be disappointed in Disney. Right off the bat I can name you three very large potions of Epcot that can be used for relaxation and taking a break from the day. The ENTIRE Tom Sawyer Island is a great escape as well.

Kevin starts off his article explaining that some of these issues will seem nit-picky when taken by themselves. I don't see this as a major issue myself. But I can see how it would be a problemn if the trend were to continue indefinitely.

That Viking boat was cool, btw.

DIAC1987 wrote:
"He didn't indicate this was a one-time event. He said "lately" leading one to believe that there has been an increased number of occurrences over multiple visits."

Working for Disney I can tell you that it was for just ESPN: The Weekend. I don't see blimps throughout the other parts of the year.

I've never been to the parks during ESPN: The Weekend. But I've seen blimps and sky writers in the past.

I don't go enough to say whether or not they've become more frequent than they have been. But apparently Kevin feels this way. You can say that you haven't had the same experience, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

DIAC1987 wrote:

"I think Kevin's main point is most of the changes have been subtle ones that whittle away at the core of what made Disney great. Its all the little details that count and make Disney, um well Disney. Disney needs to wake up and realize this."

I think the article is reaching out to find reasons to complain. Yes, Disney is not how it used to be. Yes, Disney has become a lot more commercial that before. Yes, Disney does not spend much money on certain parks (Epcot especially). In spite of all this, the article was reaching, just looking for any small insignificant reason to complain, which rather irks me. Did he ask why there was a blimp passing by Disney? No, it was just an assumption that Disney has untightened its grip on maintaining the magic.

Working for Disney I can tell you that its not the same, but some of these complaints I find in the article are rather stupid.

I also wonder if he e-mailed this article to Disney as a full-fledge complaint.......

First, as a long-time reader of Kevin's articles, the guy loves Disney. He wouldn't spend so much time obsessing over every little detail if he didn't. He's not saying that WDW is bad. He's just saying that things could be better. He's trying to help.

Yeah, some of his points don't resonate with me either. But the guy is entitled to his opinions. He backs them up with examples. If you want to offer counter-examples that would carry more weight than calling his opinions "stupid".

I doubt Kevin e-mails this article to Disney as a formal complaint. He posts a similar column semi-regularly listing everything he sees as a decline (and also all the things he thinks have gotten better!) I'm sure Disney is aware of the column and others like it if they want to read it.

Either way, he's under no obligation to file a formal complaint. He's just an online columnist doing his job and trying to make the "World" a better place.

Captain Schnemo · Post by **Captain Schnemo** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 2:15 pm

Seriously, the guy has written books about Disney and how wonderful it is. What depresses me is people who defend Disney from Disney fanboys even when Disney is clearly in the wrong.

"Sure, Disney is ripping off the customers, but that's because--" Wait, wait, wait.

No. Just, no.

There is no "but" when it comes to Disney ripping people off or providing bad show if you are a true Disney fan and truly want WDW to be an amazing place for generations to come. Certainly there is room for explanations...it doesn't make sense that Disney would try to screw us out of pure spite, so clearly things are happening for reasons that are of interest to us all.

But that doesn't make any of this OK. Yee's column demonstrates that all of these things pile up year after year, creating a customer base that is willing to accept a crappier experience as time goes by.

This entire conversation is evidence that something is very wrong at WDW. The fact that superfans are making laundry lists of things wrong with the parks that weren't broken before should be a canary in a coal mine and time for reflection, not something to try to argue away. These problems are real and the feelings are real, and nothing is going to improve as long as Disney knows that they can simply ignore their customers. You should be getting on board and pushing back against these mistakes, before there's nothing but nostalgia worth discussing online.

By the way, Cheshire Cat, in a way I'm happy to hear that you're conditionally giving up on WDW, but as someone who made the same decision 10 years ago, I'm not exactly gleeful about it. I'm sad for your loss, such as it is, and I understand what you're going through. I truly hope things get better, and one day we'll be able to talk about WDW with the same sense of wonder we once felt.

As opposed to "I wonder why they've let things get so bad"...

meticulus9 · Post by **meticulus9** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 4:22 pm

actually, the first time i went to disney as an adult, i picked up a copy of the unofficial guide and read up on fastpass....i dont see why other tourists cant do that....

given it shouldn't be a requirement to know how to "game" the system to have an enjoyable vavation. But if you know FP exists, it would make sense to learn the ins/outs

DisBeamer · Post by **DisBeamer** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 7:15 pm

meticulus9 wrote:actually, the first time i went to disney as an adult, i picked up a copy of the unofficial guide and read up on fastpass....i dont see why other tourists cant do that....

I'm sort of inclined to think this too. I remember reading someone's trip report from the early days of FastPass and how they got dirty looks from the people in the standby line. The author's response to it was "Hey, it's not my fault you're stupid."

On the other hand, my parents - who are not stupid in the least - didn't 'get' fastpass the first time they went to Disneyland and were convinced you had to have a multi-day pass to use it. From what I've heard 'round the net, this is a pretty dominant belief from casual guests. I have to conclude, then, that Disney is somehow failing to convey to everyone, maybe even the majority of guests how fastpass works, and they're cultivating bad impressions from those people.

I personally dislike the fastpass system not because of the 'inequity' (see above re: not my fault you didn't read it), but because it messes with the natural flow of the queues. I remember the days before fastpass. And yes, I remember waiting in some pretty long lines to go on rides. I do not, however, ever remember waiting in -as long- of lines as you'd typically wait in now if you weren't using fastpass. And I don't travel at different times of the year, and you won't convince me that park attendance has skyrocketed to the point that it's just that there are -that many- more people in the parks at any one time. I really think being able to effectively wait in two (or more) lines at once, particularly/primarily on low-capacity attractions, is the root of the problem.

meticulus9 · Post by **meticulus9** » Apr Sat 05, 2008 8:40 pm

yes attendance has risen, no not that high. And yes people are confused about fastpass. However, its up to them to fix it. Its a benefit if it is used correctly. If not, s.o.l. While I have sympathy for your folks and others like them, there are plenty of guide books out there.

Secondly, I actually enjoy waiting on less lines due to FP and some good plans on how to see attractions

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 8:36 am

meticulus9 wrote:yes attendance has risen, no not that high. And yes people are confused about fastpass. However, its up to them to fix it. Its a benefit if it is used correctly. If not, s.o.l. While I have sympathy for your folks and others like them, there are plenty of guide books out there.

Secondly, I actually enjoy waiting on less lines due to FP and some good plans on how to see attractions

Sure, it's a benefit to you because you know how to use the system. But FP is not a benefit to theme park customers as a whole. You are benefitting at someone else's expense.

FP isn't magic. It doesn't create capacity out of thin air. It just redistributes the wait. Someone else had to wait in a longer line for you to get any benefit out of FP.

I am troubled by the number of people who said, "They should have read a guide book." How would the average tourist know that they need to read a guide book as thick as a dictionary in order to navigate a theme park?

To the average tourist, WDW and MK are the same place. They've been to an amusement park before. They didn't need a guide book to do that. So when they booked their trip to Orlando, it never occurred to them they would need to read up on how to get the most out of an amusement park.

They have no idea how large WDW is. They don't understand the complexities. And they don't want to have to plan out every detail of their vacations months in advance (can you blame them?). They don't realize that you can't just show up at the gate, buy a one-day ticket and tour the park like they would Six Flags.

The average tourist takes the family when the kids are out of school not realizing that the parks will be packed and the weather will be burtal. They have no idea how much walking will be involved. They don't understand the ticket pricing structure or how long it will take to tour the parks.

Most of them don't even understand that there is more than one park (or if they do - don't know which ones are Disney and which ones aren't).

They didn't know that they needed to book reservations at sit-down restaurants 6 months ago to get a seat. They don't know to get to the parks early. And even if they did, they have no idea which rides they need to see while the lines are short.

They definitely don't understand the FP system. They don't know that it's free. They don't understand that they can use it the same as everyone else. And they sure don't know that by not using it they will wait in longer lines than everyone else.

Even if they have figured out that FP exists and that they can benefit from it, they are definitely not using it to its full capacity. They will use the FP on rides that don't really require it. We Disney experts will use our FPs with blinding efficiency while they waste them on Winnie the Pooh.

When people find out that I am a fan of WDW, I almost always get a laundry list of everything that went wrong, every way they felt ripped off and every reason that person will never go back to WDW again. (Just the other day, I spoke with a co-worker about he felt ripped off by the park-hopper option his family never used.)

WDW is an extremely complex place. Even for veterans, it can be overwhelming. To a novice, who has no idea what they are getting into, it can quickly turn into an expensive and frustrtaing experience.

In short, FP benefits a few at the expense of the majority. While I am in the group that benefits, I can't help but think the parks would be better off with less complexity and putting everyone on equal footing.

When everyone is waiting in the same line, the lines keep moving. Sure, they are longer than the FP lines we're used to. But they are much shorter and move much faster than the current stand-by lines most tourists have to put up with these days.

Making the parks less complex and easier for everyone to enjoy benefits everyone. Not just people who knew to read the guide books.

meticulus9 · Post by **meticulus9** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 3:02 pm

i comepletely disagree with your analysis. Your argument simply is the following: well its not fair the way it is, so we have to "dumb" it down for the avg person. Everyone passes, no one fails! Yay!....Completely disagree.

Yes I do admit that veterans receive better benefits since they know the system (regarding FP, reservations ,etc). But its truely an equal system. everyone can get a FP, if they choose Winnie thats not my fault. Everyone has a chance for a PS. If they want to get up late (and some days I do too), you are going to have a late afternoon FP or a long wait on Splash.

What is clear is that WDW, MK is not your average theme park and if someone thinks that it is, I can't help that misguided conception.

Secondly, if you were going to paris or LA or tokyo, or take a cruise you would research your vacation. E.g. where to stay, dine, attractions,museums, rides, etc- the prices, how to get around etc. Why wouldn't you do the same for any other vacation- even WDW. WDW has 4 parks, mult resort, activites, dining etc. Its just like going to a large city for a week. You need to plan. Spontaneity is a part of a vacation for some people, but would y you go to NYC without looking up anything at all (if you never have been there). Thats a recipe for diaster.

I didnt read the entire books. I read the passages relevant to me: FP and PS. A little research- 20-30 min can go along way

Breton · Post by **Breton** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 3:48 pm

All I have to say is I think Disney is doing a great job, things need fixing. If Mr. Walt Disney was to see this, there would probably be hell to pay for the disney management. I dont think he would have put up with half of this knowing the perfectionist he was.

DIAC1987 · Post by **DIAC1987** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 4:02 pm

People have been complaining about it for a long time. The complaints have gotten louder because for some people the hard tocket events are the straw that broke the camel's back.

Just because you can't remember back to the times when the park's kept longer hours, doesn't invalidate the points of the people who can remember it.

From their point of view, Disney increased the price of tickets and decreased the value of those tickets by shortening their operating hours. Now, Disney expects them to pay extra on top of the higher-priced tickets to get back what they once offered for free.

Of course people are complaining.

Like I said, Magic Kingdom is pretty much the only park that can justify the complaining. However, in the other parks, I'm pretty sure that for the longest time, the hours have been the same, perhaps even better. I need to see examples of a time in which all the parks would close past the 9:00 hour.

Back then, all of Future World ALWAYS closed at 7:00, no questions asked. Nowadays, the more popular rides and even Nemo stays open until 9:00. Hollywood Studios has been closing in the 8:30--10:30 P.M. range for a while too.

Explain to me how FP benefits these visitors.

FP does not create capacity. It does not shorten lines.

It shortens waits for those who know how to use it. The one-time visitor you described is less likely to know how to use it than the yearly visitor or the Orlando local.

I know people who went on that one-time trip to Disney who were upset because they didn't understand why Disney was letting people cut in line while they were stuck in a stand-by line that didn't move. Those people wouldn't go back to WDW if you paid them.

If you think that FP benefits the casual tourist, you don't understand how the system works.

More and more people are going to these Disney parks, that is a known fact, and with the FastPass system, if you know how to use it, then it will be beneficial to you. Like others have said in this thread, there are countless, I mean, countless of ways to learn and figure out the FastPass system; it is not Disney's fault if you still cannot figure it out. Its on the maps, its on television, its on the unofficial/official guides to Disney World. Walking into these parks blindly isn't the best way to go.

I've never been to the parks during ESPN: The Weekend. But I've seen blimps and sky writers in the past.

I don't go enough to say whether or not they've become more frequent than they have been. But apparently Kevin feels this way. You can say that you haven't had the same experience, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

I never stated he's wrong, but blimps do not happen often in the parks, that's for sure. The sky writers, I'll give you that one, but blimps rarely rarely occur.

First, as a long-time reader of Kevin's articles, the guy loves Disney. He wouldn't spend so much time obsessing over every little detail if he didn't. He's not saying that WDW is bad. He's just saying that things could be better. He's trying to help.

Yeah, some of his points don't resonate with me either. But the guy is entitled to his opinions. He backs them up with examples. If you want to offer counter-examples that would carry more weight than calling his opinions "stupid".

I doubt Kevin e-mails this article to Disney as a formal complaint. He posts a similar column semi-regularly listing everything he sees as a decline (and also all the things he thinks have gotten better!) I'm sure Disney is aware of the column and others like it if they want to read it.

Either way, he's under no obligation to file a formal complaint. He's just an online columnist doing his job and trying to make the "World" a better place.

I've tried offering examples, but some of my counter-arguments could not come with examples, it would be hard to provide some. All I am saying is that while some of his complaints are indeed major and indeed valid, there are other complaints in the article that just irk me because of how small, useless, and pointless they are. When you sound like the kind of guest that would file a complaint to Disney because it was raining (This HAS happened before), we have a problem.

Walt Disney World is absolutely nothing like any other theme park or amusement park in the entire planet, so if the typical guest is going to treat as such, they are in for a major surprise. Walt Disney World is consisting of a dozen hotels, endless dining options, four theme parks, two water parks, several golf courses, two mini-golf courses, two nighttime areas for adults, and dozens of different ways of spending your time in the area. It is absolutely your fault if you do not at least mildly prepare for what is out there. The FastPass system is fair, equal, balanced, and can be accessed by anyone.

By any means I am not defending Disney on its declining quality, however if its a feeble and rather bland complaint, then I am going to step up and say it is. In my opinion, and I am pretty sure I'm not the only one, some of these complaints are stupid, and the FastPass one is one that is not necessary.

Once again, my opinion.

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 4:20 pm

meticulus9 wrote:
i comepletely disagree with your analysis. Your argument simply is the following: well its not fair the way it is, so we have to "dumb" it down for the avg person. Everyone passes, no one fails! Yay!....Completely disagree.

Actually, it sounds like you agree with a lot of my analysis. We're just at a difference of opinion over which outcome is preferable. You favor the FP system which benefits you over those who do not use or understand the system. I'm advocating a natural flow of trafic which doesn't favor any one guest over another.

meticulus9 wrote: Yes I do admit that veterans receive better benefits since they know the system (regarding FP, reservations ,etc). But its truely an equal system. everyone can get a FP, if they choose Winnie thats not my fault. Everyone has a chance for a PS. If they want to get up late (and some days I do too), you are going to have a late afternoon FP or a long wait on Splash.

The system is equal in that everyone has a chance to use it. But a lot of people don't know how to use it, much less use it well.

It's undeniable that the system favors those who have researched WDW over the casual tourist. I would argue that makes it an unfair system.

meticulus9 wrote: What is clear is that WDW, MK is not your average theme park and if someone thinks that it is, I can't help that misguided conception.

It is obvious to you and me and everyone who posts here because we are all very familiar with WDW. But what a lot of Disney fans fail to grasp is that we are in the minority. The average person doesn't really understand at all what WDW is.

And you can help that misconception. I do it all the time. I can't tell you how many people I've helped prepare for their first Disney trip. Some of those people hadn't done any planning at all until I spoke with them. I only get to a handful of people. But it helps.

meticulus9 wrote:
Secondly, if you were going to paris or LA or tokyo, or take a cruise you would research your vacation. E.g. where to stay, dine, attractions,museums, rides, etc- the prices, how to get around etc. Why wouldn't you do the same for any other vacation- even WDW.

I think most people who do some research for their first trip overseas or to a major city. But to most people, WDW is just another theme park. And they don't see any need to research a trip to a theme park.

I know that's not your fault. But it's not their fault that they don't know any better.

In my opinion, it is Disney's fault. They have made a WDW vacation a very complex ordeal. There is a ridiculous amount of planning involved. And they don't do anything to indicate to a new visitor that this is the case.

FP and PS are just two ways in which they have made WDW unfriendly to the casual tourist.

meticulus9 wrote: WDW has 4 parks, mult resort, activites, dining etc. Its just like going to a large city for a week. You need to plan. Spontaneity is a part of a vacation for some people, but would y you go to NYC without looking up anything at all (if you never have been there). Thats a recipe for diaster.

I agree. WDW is overwhelming. I'm still going online to ask questions about trips I plan for myself and others. Fortunately for me and those I help, I know what to research and where to look. But a lot of people don't even realize they need to plan ahead at all.

Imagine you went on a trip to what you though was going to be a quiet little town - just like any other quiet little town you'd ever been too. But when you got there, instead you found yourself in a sprawling complex. Wherever you went, people were being let in before you and you didn't know why. And when you try to make a dinner reservation, you keep being told you should have done so 6 months ago.

I'd say that's not very magical.

meticulus9 wrote: I didnt read the entire books. I read the passages relevant to me: FP and PS. A little research- 20-30 min can go along way

True. When I'm helping someone plan a trip, I try not to overload them with info. Usually just 4 or 5 tips can mean the difference between a magical WDW vacation and a nightmare they never want to repeat. FP and PS are two of the first things I tell people about.

I've outlined pretty thoroughly why I am not in favor of the FP system. I'm curious to hear why you (and others) favor it. So far, the only thing I've seen is that people like not having to wait in line. They are willing to have other people wait in longer lines so they can wait in shorter ones.

Is there any other advantage to FP?

I believe there is not. At least, not to the park guest. (Disney instituted FP as a means to get people into their shops not realizing that most people will instead just go wait in line for something else.)

If there is no other advantage, I see that as a bad system even though I benefit from it. The majority of people are actually harmed by FP. The end result is fewer people enchanted by WDW. That's bad for everyone.

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 4:55 pm

DIAC1987 wrote:
More and more people are going to these Disney parks, that is a known fact, and with the FastPass system, if you know how to use it, then it will be beneficial to you.

Agreed. But it still doesn't explain how FP benefits those who didn't plan ahead. The fact of the matter is, if everyone knew how to use FP, it would not benefit anyone.

DIAC1987 wrote: Like others have said in this thread, there are countless, I mean, countless of ways to learn and figure out the FastPass system; it is not Disney's fault if you still cannot figure it out. Its on the maps, its on television, its on the unofficial/official guides to Disney World. Walking into these parks blindly isn't the best way to go.

You're preaching to the choir. I always tell people to make sure they plan for their trip. Even a little planning will make the whole trip that much more enjoyable. But you'd be surprised by the number of people who don't know this.

And even with all the info out there on FP, there are still plenty of people who don't get the message. I have a brother who goes to WDW every year on business. He spends a couple of days in the parks. But until I went with him, he never used FP.

He'd been to the parks dozens of times. He knew what FP was. He knew it was free. But he didn't realize how much it would benefit him to use it. So, he never bothered looking for the FP kiosks.

The frustrating part is the FP is completely unnecessary. You could get rid of it completely and it would not cause bottlenecks. Everyone would wait in the same line and those lines would move at a steady pace.

DIAC1987 wrote: I've tried offering examples, but some of my counter-arguments could not come with examples, it would be hard to provide some. All I am saying is that while some of his complaints are indeed major and indeed valid, there are other complaints in the article that just irk me because of how small, useless, and pointless they are. When you sound like the kind of guest that would file a complaint to Disney because it was raining (This HAS happened before), we have a problem.

I spent seven years in movie theater management, so I know what kind of customer you're talking about. As a society, we have been conditioned to complain. There's no downside to it and you might get something for nothing.

Trust me, Kevin Yee is not that guy.

The guy sings Disney's praises on a regular basis. All he's trying to do is to shine a light on areas where things could be improved. You can't make things better if you don't acknowledge the problems.

Yeah, some of this stuff is nit-picky. But that's how companies work. They get rid of something they didn't think anyone would notice to save a nickel. And they don't replace it with anything.

Disney didn't always behave like other companies. They built their reputation on spending that extra nickel to "plus" the customer's experience.

DIAC1987 wrote: Walt Disney World is absolutely nothing like any other theme park or amusement park in the entire planet, so if the typical guest is going to treat as such, they are in for a major surprise.

I agree whole heartedly. They are in for an unpleasant surprise. One they will tell their friends and family about.

DIAC1987 wrote: Walt Disney World is consisting of a dozen hotels, endless dining options, four theme parks, two water parks, several golf courses, two mini-golf courses, two nighttime areas for adults, and dozens of different ways of spending your time in the area. It is absolutely your fault if you do not at least mildly prepare for what is out there.

Here we disagree. How can the customer be to blame for not knowing any better? (There's a little saying about the customer being right, but I'm sure you know it.)

I say it is Disney's fault for having needlessly complicated the entrire experience.

And even if it is not their fault, it is definitely their problem. When these customers come away dissatisfied with the experience and tell their friends and families about their frustrating and expensive WDW trip.

DIAC1987 wrote: The FastPass system is fair, equal, balanced, and can be accessed by anyone.

Just because everyone has access to FP doesn't mean it is fair.

Let's say at work, an e-mail was sent out that said that everyone who responded to the e-mail would get an extra $100.00 in their paycheck. And that $100.00 would be funded from the paychecks of people who did not respond.

Everyone received the e-mail. Everyone had a chance to respond. But if you didn't pay attention to the e-mail and had money taken out of your paycheck as a result, I doubt you would call it "fair".

DIAC1987 wrote: By any means I am not defending Disney on its declining quality, however if its a feeble and rather bland complaint, then I am going to step up and say it is.

That's fine. But it kind of misses the point of the "declining by degrees" concept Kevin is writing about. He acknowledges up front that some of the declines are minor when taken by themselves.

DIAC1987 wrote: In my opinion, and I am pretty sure I'm not the only one, some of these complaints are stupid, and the FastPass one is one that is not necessary.

I won't call any of them "stupid". There are some I don't necessarily agree with.

I feel the argument against FP is a strong one. Please feel free to explain the benefits of FP. I'd like to hear the counter-argument.

lebeau · Post by **lebeau** » Apr Sun 06, 2008 5:54 pm

One more note on FP.

Are you aware that Disney has filed patents for technology that will allow them to keep track of how much each guest has spent during their trip? The patent explains that this technology could be used to reward bigger spenders with more FPs. Or to schedule FPs a day in advance from their hotel rooms. It would also limit the number of FPs available to everyone else.

It will be interesting to see what the reaction is if Disney decides to follow through on this plan. They have already tested it in the parks.