Monorail Expansion

[rdeacon]

This post took a weird turn...... monorails to wind power?




Rich

[Jwc247]

That would be nice to have an extention to Epcot and Animal Kingdom But I doubt It will happen... 8)

[togasports]

WAY TOO EXPENSIVE! the monorail is the most expensive "ride" on Disney Property. For the price of expanding the monorail to Disney MGM Studios, They were able to build Animal Kingdom.

[Jwc247]

That would be cool to have an expansion to the polynesian!

[Club33Hopeful]

For everyone that is saying it is way too expensive, please post numbers to back up your claims. I want to see it myself.

[js3901]

That would be cool to have an expansion to the polynesian!

There's already a line going to the Polynesian. as well as Epcot. Both are accessible from the TTC.

[rdeacon]

Here is post from a letter that was submitted to http://www.jimhillmedia.com. I think it sums up what most of us have thought.


I've read that Disney has plans for monorail expansion and it's too expensive But what about other forms of transportation to Studios, Animal Kingdom and resorts? Has Disney given any though into light rail, boats to Animal Kingdom, etc.?

Sorry, Thomas. But I'm afraid that I don't know all that much about what's up with WDW's transportation system. So why don't I turn this question over to Scott Liljenquist of Mouseketrips and see what he has to say?
Scott?

Thank you, Jim.

Monorail expansion? It's a popular topic (just do a Google search on Walt Disney World Monorail expansion to see for yourself) that's been rumored for years. As anyone who has been to WDW recently can attest, something needs to be done to fix the overworked transportation system and reduce the vast number of smelly and slow buses that are the mainstay of WDW Transportation.

A monorail expansion is always everyone's first wish, due to the novelty and history that this unique transportation method has with the Walt Disney Company. What most folks don't realize, however, is just how close we came to enjoying a vastly expanded and improved WDW monorail system.

You see, an expansion of the monorail system to reach the two newest theme parks, Disney-MGM Studios and Disney's Animal Kingdom, as well as the Downtown Disney district, has always been in the long-term plan for the Florida property. Costs, budget crunches, economic recessions, and other factors have all had a hand in preventing that expansion over the years.

However, during the late 1990s work on a complete overhaul of the transportation system really started to pick up steam. In addition to expanding the monorail system, options for additional boat service, bus service, a light-rail system, and even an ultra-futuristic customizable mass-transit system similar to this one and this one were all considered and in the mix. In addition to those plans, a high-speed rail line from the airport and a new transportation hub were planned and designed.

Anyone lucky enough to visit the interior of the monorail service barns during this time, and attentive enough to notice, could have seen the design plans posted on the wall for two additional monorail lines connecting Animal Kingdom, Disney-MGM Studios, and the Downtown Disney area to a new transportation hub.

So exactly how close was this revamp of the transportation system? In a speech given in early 2000 to Cast Members, Al Weiss, the president of the Walt Disney World Resort, said "in two years, we are committed to drastically reducing the number of buses required to fulfill our internal transportation needs." He forecast a "transport system which will whisk guests from the airport to a new hub on property in five minutes."

In fact, according to company insiders, this ambitious plan was to have been announced to the public during the company's annual media event in October of 2001.

But then nothing happened. Why For? If you note the date of the proposed announcement above and subtract a month and a few days, you end up with 9/11. The tourism crash precipitated by that event caused Disney to immediately switch to survival mode. The rumored $750 million price tag of this transportation expansion was just too much to spend when visitors to the property were staying home with their money in droves. It just wasn't wise, at that time, to spend so much on something that did not generate any revenue.

But wait, you're saying. Aren't things better now? Aren't people returning to WDW en masse? Haven't I heard that bookings at WDW are approaching and even exceeding, in some cases, pre-9/11 levels? Doesn't that mean we can get the project back on track?

Well, yes and no. The entire project has been pulled back in for re-evaluation. Many readers, I'm sure, have been stopped in the past 18 months by the Disney survey takers at the entrances to the parks and asked their opinion on the transportation system. Disney is right now gathering data and will use it to decide if the old proposal still works or if better alternatives are now available.

No current time frame has been set for this, and I wouldn't expect to see anything announced anytime soon regarding this massive project. Among other things, Disney has to wait to see what will happen with the proposed high-speed rail system before more concrete plans can be made.

Anyway, I guess that was a long way of saying that while it's still possible, and as much as we'd all like to see it happen, it's unlikely that any expansion of the monorail system is coming quickly.

That's it for this question. Now let me hand the rest of the questions for this week's "Why For" back over to Mr. Hill. Jim?

Thank you, Scott. It's always nice to bring the guys from Mouseketrips to answer those travel-specific questions. They really know their stuff when it comes to the Disney resorts.


Rich

[Club33Hopeful]

Great article. However, it doesn't say it is too expensive. In fact, it seems like it was going to move forward at one point, and it still might. Consider this:

"The 13.6 mile monorail system will carry over 150,000 guests to the Magic Kingdom and Epcot parks on an average day."

How many busses would that be and what would the total cost of that be by bus.

[js3901]

with that article, it seems like they will be going forward with this soon (not nearly fast enough, but still). My best guess is that they'll be waiting to see how well Expedition Everest does for AK park. if attendence there goes up, I'm sure we'll see the starting signs of expansion soon there after. Also, with the increased revenue from HKDL opening in a couple weeks, that'll help (at least I think it will, what with the heavy publicity so far as well as all the excitment). plus, if they're doing polls when guests enter the parks, that's a good sign as well.

[G2-4T]

Good article. I can tell you this much, a standard 40' transit bus carries roughly 40 passengers, 60 at crush loads [ie - sardine loads]. Say the bus runs from 8-11 pm [15 hours]. 10,000 passengers an hour means 166 trips or 3 trips leave the two parks every minute. 83 round trip runs need to be made an hour.

Allowing for traffic [20 minutes one way from boarding to exiting], driver layovers [5-10 min an hour, also doubles as recovery time], etc. a minumum of 50 buses would be needed to be in service for this route alone. Drivers get say $20/hour plus benifits so call it $40/hour. So 50*40*15 means $30,000 daily in basic labor alone, not operations [dispatch, gas, etc], maint., etc. and this is only the Epcot-MK run.

Typical cost for a new 40' New Flyer or Gillig bus [like the new ones they are getting today] is around a half-million depending on options, etc. Considering how they rely on a huge fleet of aging RTS buses [the "typical Disney bus"] that will hit retirement soon they will need plenty more buses...

I haven't priced monorail lines recently but our 12 mile LRT line cost $700 million [complete in 2004] but considering it has a mile long tunnel deep under an airport and a large amount of land to aquire [two things WDW has no worries about] it would have been much cheaper. Now I know this isn't a monorail but an example of current rail lines being built. Daily running costs are known to be much less than that of buses.

And keep in mind you can't price public opinion and in this case can't tag "this many people" that will no longer rent a car since they can take a train from a central hub where the buses may have been too long. It can be studied how much car traffic would be off the roads and how much money they would save in pavement wear but no one outside Disney has that info...

Back to what Club33 is saying - for all you saying that the monorail is more expensive give the numbers to prove it. Include operations costs too. I still have yet to see buses win out in high capacity situations such as this...

[rdeacon]

Good article. I can tell you this much, a standard 40' transit bus carries roughly 40 passengers, 60 at crush loads [ie - sardine loads]. Say the bus runs from 8-11 pm [15 hours]. 10,000 passengers an hour means 166 trips or 3 trips leave the two parks every minute. 83 round trip runs need to be made an hour.

Allowing for traffic [20 minutes one way from boarding to exiting], driver layovers [5-10 min an hour, also doubles as recovery time], etc. a minumum of 50 buses would be needed to be in service for this route alone. Drivers get say $20/hour plus benifits so call it $40/hour. So 50*40*15 means $30,000 daily in basic labor alone, not operations [dispatch, gas, etc], maint., etc. and this is only the Epcot-MK run.

Man this sounds like a SAT question... I almost busted out a pen, paper and my scientific calc to solve it....

G2-4T makes a very good point. Cost are only going to rise with buses thanks to the rising cost of oil. And correct me if I am wrong, I don't recall seeing any Disney natural gas buses, so the rising fuel prices might help a monorail revolution

VIVA LA MONORAIL !!


Rich

[vfxpro]

For everyone that is saying it is way too expensive, please post numbers to back up your claims. I want to see it myself.

I am a WDW monorail Pilot. I'd be happy to scan my ID & Wings if you would like. I'm not saying they will or won't expand the systems. I have literally seen dozens of plans at WDI and other locations. I will tell you this, the last numbers that were given to me were the following:

New trains 12 - 14 Million Dollars each.

New Beams 1.5 Million Dollars per mile.

New Monorail Shop 20 - 30 Million Dollars.

If Disney wouldn't be so hipocritcal, they would use the monorail for long runs and the wedway for short. Just like the EPCOT film tells us to. Listen to Uncle Walt and all will be forgiven!!!

[vfxpro]

I forgot to add the operations cost in my last post. The average pilot is paid between $6.45 and $8.00 per hour. With the automated gates now installed, you don't need as many pilots. The maintenence crew makes by far more per hour ranging from $15 - $40. The current Mark VI fleet is very expensive to maintain because they do not make parts for the trains anymore. Plus the current beams are in need of maintenance. So you need to add the cost of upgrading the current beams and adding the new beams and stations.

For the summer WDW is running all 12 trains, I can tell you first hand that the trains go down quite often. If an MCU (control stick) breaks in the front cab, they steal one from the back cab. They continually recycle their parts and eventually fix the broken ones. I cannot tell you how many times I've taken out a red flagged (needs maintenance) train into service.

[vfxpro]

I agree 100% with vfxpro's conclusion about the monorail system: there won't be an expansion anytime soon. It's VERY cost prohibitive. We always heard that expansion would cost about $1 million per mile, just for the track. These days, vfxpro's estimate of $1.5 million is probably more accurate.

Also, and maybe you can verify this, vfx, I heard that there were structural problems with the concrete pylons for the monorail. Word had it that injections of fresh concrete need to be made every so often below the water table to prevent the pylons from sinking into the ground. Fact or urban legend?

I'd love to see a WEDway system, but with the pursestrings being held so tightly lately, who knows when the transportation system will get an upgrade? It's too bad, because I don't think anyone will be sorry to see the buses go the way of Discovery Island and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

Your rumor about the pylons is true, at least according to the maintenance guys.

[vfxpro]

What is the cost of all of those busses and bus drivers? Also, you cannot factor the cost of guest satisfaction.

THe drivers make about $10 - $14 an hour. Not including overtime. I think the pixie dust has gotten thick in here. Disney (at least during Eisner's regime) DOES NOT CARE about guest satisfaction. I am a WDW freak, I've been there a million times, I'm a cast member, I'm a fan. It says in the hand books that Guest satisfaction is number one, but it really isn't. I constantly get in trouble for slowing the Monorail down during Illuminations so my guests can see it. The guests thank me for it, and I get yelled at by management.

WEDWAY would solve all of the transportation issues.. Cheaper than monorail, there is a car ALWAYS there for you. WDI have developed destination selection for it. Cheaper to maintain with a 99.8% uptime. Personalized transport (no standing or having to be in a car with people who don't believe in showering).

I hate the busses. They cram you in, they compete with tourist traffic. They are very unreliable and not Disney. Buses do not comply with Disney's philosophy of Environmentality.