Whoah... (Surreal Vintage Picture)

DisBeamer · Post by **DisBeamer** » May Fri 30, 2008 7:39 pm

*snerk* Love the face thar, Cheshire. XD

Seeing the aerial up close I'm convinced the background is that back bit of SSE. Is it possible they decided to pave over a pond when they put in those sparkly stones (which I love, btw), to improve traffic flow through the plaza area? Maybe the mystery seating area, if that's what it is, was associated with the Fountainview Bakery (or whatever it was originally called)?

I've been looking for older maps online but the best I can find so far is 86 and there's definitely no seating there.

((Also how dorky is this conversation? We're -this- close to needing a 12 step program.))

Edit in response to edit 2 (gettin' complicated here): Shoot. Well maybe another early map? Something between 81 and 86 anyway..

Captain Schnemo · Post by **Captain Schnemo** » May Fri 30, 2008 7:51 pm

I really don't remember any ponds there, but that was a long time ago. If there weren't a reflection of the golf ball in the pond, I would be calling shenanigans about now.

Anyway, those two eyes on the face would be my best guess too...except...just doesn't seem right, does it?

If you look at those shroom caps, you can see that they are easily removable, even the one attached to the building. If we can confirm that's a Communicore they're attached too, we've really limited the possibilities.

Also, I found this from 1989, which explains to me why the Electric Umbrella sounds like a "new" (and lamer) name to me.

No hint of a pond.

And, yes, we do have problems, but we knew that already. Regardless, solving mysteries is a worthwhile pastime.

EDIT: Additionally, the only two areas (I think) that were ever restaurants were the Stargate/Umbrella and Sunrise/Pizza Joint/whateveritisnow. So one of the eyes is ruled out and, uh, I dunno...a cheek dimple has been added.

EDIT EDIT: Check out this Communicore article. The (pond-less) photo is really interesting, and the series of restaurant replacements jibes with what's in my brain.

DisBeamer · Post by **DisBeamer** » May Fri 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Just googling old pictures of Epcot now. No luck yet but there was some terrifying stuff wandering around World Showcase back in the day. o.O http://blogworetennisshoes.blogspot.com ... epcot.html

I'm thinking more as I look at it that it must be Fountainview (the old pizza place/Sunrise). I know when you walk around it now there's kind of an outdoor seating area that's raised and is just kind of a wall that goes into the path. I can picture there having been water around it at some point; it would explain that design (from back in the day when Disney Landscaping designs tended to make sense). Someone out there has to have another picture of it...

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » May Fri 30, 2008 8:46 pm

I'm thinking more as I look at it that it must be Fountainview (the old pizza place/Sunrise).

Yeah, this is what I'm starting to think too. That curved seating area is coming back to me. I can even start to visualize a staircase splitting taht original seating area where the staircase to fountainview is.

The only thing is that, it seems a little too close to SSE to be fountainview. It almost looks like the very northern end of the building. That's the only reason I thought it would be the circled area. However, the nearness to SSE may just be an illusion by the way the picture was taken.
_____________________________________________
EDIT (and calling it quits for the night)

a 1983 map shows lots of water features in the communicore plaza:
http://flickr.com/photos/96525092@N00/1 ... 1/sizes/l/

The Electric Umbrella (or whatever it was back in 1982) is surrounded by water. I can't tell if Fountain View is also, or if that's green for a garden.

Wow, there's was only that main center path into World Showcase back then. I hardly ever even use that one. (and one boat dock?)

DisBeamer · Post by **DisBeamer** » May Fri 30, 2008 9:29 pm

I've found one picture that shows water in the area we're looking for it, but not in relation to either restaurant. Also I can't tell if this image is flipped or not... http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3501 ... 20copy.jpg

It sorta looks from that map, Cheshire, like we're looking at the Umbrella, then. Which confuses me more, since I can picture how the water/seating area would fit into the Fountainview area but not on the Umbrella side (unless there was major reconstruction over there, which is seeming more likely). Curiouser and curiouser.

Edit: Hmmm. Picture of the plaza in the Epcot guide map for 1992 - this seems to show water near the Umbrella and on the opposite side. http://www.florida-project.com/images/g ... 992-09.jpg

Same deal, but 1994. No more water.
http://www.florida-project.com/images/g ... 994-10.jpg

The site I yanked those from (http://www.florida-project.com/epcot-ce ... emaps/1994) says that all the renaming of Sunrise, Communicore, etc, happened in 94 as well. Maybe that was when the 'great pave' occurred?

kcarts · Post by **kcarts** » May Sat 31, 2008 10:35 am

It's definitely Odyssey. There is a "bridge" from the restaurant to the path that leads from Future World to World Showcase. That's where this picture was likely taken.

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » May Sat 31, 2008 11:12 am

Wow... great work Disbeamer!

I can deduce even a bit more now! I have a '93 map that looks just like the '94 map you posted, but Horizons is still open, CommuniCore/Innoventions isn't labeled as anything and the ponds are gone, so they must have been paved sometime in '93 as they were preparing to change CommuniCore into Innoventions.

I find it hard to believe that these ponds survived all the way till '93 and yet there are so few pictures of them on the internet. When I found it I was assuming it must have been paved over early on like '83 or '84.

My parents went in '88 and '89 and they told me they can't remember for sure what the plaza was like. My first visit was '93 and I was too youg to remember much of the parks themselves (although for some reason I can remember the rides more clearly), so the ponds in the picture really caught me off guard. I guess the plaza has gone through more changes than I thought, FIRST they paved it over and THEN they cluttered it up.

Looking at that list, so many things happened in '94. Most of the things on that list range from neutral to bad. The only really great thing that happened was the introdcution of the Flower and Garden Festival.

EDIT: Shnemo, I think that drawing you posted earlier was drawn by someone who doesn't do their research as well as us

It says circa 1989, but it's really a mishmash of time periods. In fact, if you go by the official maps and closing/opening dates of the resturants, that drawing could only have been accurate for a short time sometime in ealry '93, after the paving of the ponds, but before the conversion of Stargate/all of CommuniCore.

Captain Schnemo · Post by **Captain Schnemo** » May Sat 31, 2008 11:46 am

DisBeamer wrote:I've found one picture that shows water in the area we're looking for it, but not in relation to either restaurant. http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3501 ... 20copy.jpg

I found that Googling around last night too, but it seemed to add more questions than it solved, so I tried to pretend that I didn't see it.

It does prove the theory that there was more water in the past than there is now, so all options are still on the table.

I agree with Chesire in that it really does seem to be on the north end of the plaza, and it seems more likely that the picture was not flipped in the first place.

One vague memory resurfaced while I was thinking about this...I remember at least one major redesign of the plaza, and it had to be a little while after the opening of the park (because it featured a Disney character).

There was a show where Mickey Mouse was fighting some giant bizarre fire-breathing robot dragon. (Perhaps this was a test of Fantasmic! tech before it was installed in DL.) I was on my way somewhere else, so I didn't stop to watch the whole thing, but I figured I'd catch the show later. It probably didn't stay around for very long, because I never got a close look. Anyway, I remember thinking that they must have redesigned something to allow for the show. I believe this was in the SE quadrant of the plaza. I don't know if they simply added a stage or paved over a pond...that's the extent of what my neurons are telling me.

So, after all this, it's seeming more and more likely that Chesire's original hypothesis (Umbrella/Stargate) is correct. Does anyone have a current ground level photo of that? I doubt the Communicore building itself has changed that much, and if we look at it straight on, we could probably see what's been added or removed in relation to the main structure.

I still can't picture where the mulch/palm tree in the foreground could have been, but if there was a pond, there had to be some border...

HakuOni · Post by **HakuOni** » May Sat 31, 2008 3:14 pm

oh thats soo cool, a mystery place! i really love fountains especially the ones in epcot! i really would like a video of all the fountains in epcot

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » May Sat 31, 2008 3:45 pm

It would be really cool if they added a water feature to the plaza again. By looking at that "BEFORE" picture and the 1983 map, it looks like it was one big pond with a bridge over the middle (right about where the pin trading station is now). All the clutter makes the plaza look so small now. With all that water and open space, the plaza looked huge and much more breath-taking. Stupid awnings, circus tents, whrilimajigs and neon signs.

I wish they could somehow reproduce this original plaza, but keep the LED ground tiles.

Calypso · Post by **Calypso** » May Sat 31, 2008 5:17 pm

Anbody email epcotdreamer, the person that posted the picture, and ask?

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » May Sat 31, 2008 5:54 pm

Anbody email epcotdreamer, the person that posted the picture, and ask?

That would be easier, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

DisBeamer · Post by **DisBeamer** » Jun Sun 01, 2008 11:32 am

Cheshire Cat wrote:I find it hard to believe that these ponds survived all the way till '93 and yet there are so few pictures of them on the internet. When I found it I was assuming it must have been paved over early on like '83 or '84.

I was thinking the same thing myself. I know my first visit to Epcot was in 91, and I wasn't -that- young, but I really have no recollection of there being ponds there. When I was looking for the old maps I was shooting like, 84, 85ish. I was really surprised to see some evidence of them in 93. o_O

It does make sense, I suppose, that they were taken out in the big remodel that cluttered up the plaza, however, and I do remember the change from the original stark space to the 'homanz, there's all kinds of stuff all over' look. It's entirely possible 'hey some ponds are gone' was not on my radar at the time.

Captain Schnemo wrote:So, after all this, it's seeming more and more likely that Chesire's original hypothesis (Umbrella/Stargate) is correct. Does anyone have a current ground level photo of that? I doubt the Communicore building itself has changed that much, and if we look at it straight on, we could probably see what's been added or removed in relation to the main structure.

No luck with that one yet; I've only found pictures of the Umbrella head-on. I think from other pictures, though, you're right. The only thing that seems to have changed about the Communicore building (apart from the insides..) is the color and the height of the foliage around it. If we could find one from a similar angle we'd be set. I'm wondering if no one takes pictures from that direction anymore because some of the new architecture/things over the plaza block the view of SSE. *eyes Cheshire's countdown timer* You may have a mission ahead of you.

Cheshire Cat wrote:
Anbody email epcotdreamer, the person that posted the picture, and ask?
That would be easier, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

*giggle* At one point during the night o' searching, I considered doing that, but then thought that'd take all the sport out of it.

Jacca5660 · Post by **Jacca5660** » Jun Sun 01, 2008 11:59 am

I've looked through all of our pictures of EPCOT (not an easy thing to do) and can not find a picture of the area around Odyssey. It's a walk through. I guess we've just never thought of stopping for pictures there.
Next time we go I'll have to stop and get a few shots.

Cheshire Cat · Post by **Cheshire Cat** » Jun Sun 01, 2008 1:49 pm

*eyes Cheshire's countdown timer* You may have a mission ahead of you.

Definitely, I'm going to print out the picture and bring it to the park to make sure I get the right view too.

Then we'll be able to compare the clutter perfectly and hate it even more.

I'm thinking the whole outdoor seaing area of the umbrella is the area that was altered.

You can see where the old pavement and the new pavement meet right below where the epcot center logo topiary used to be...
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g101/ ... nyface.jpg