Is WDW Environmentally conscious or not?

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Captain Schnemo
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Feb Mon 16, 2009 12:23 am

99Soulz wrote:If it can kill 2 birds (I guess that's not really environmentally conscious is it??) then go for it.
They should be highlighting the fact that the economy and the environment are not necessarily at odds. Conserving resources is the same thing as conserving money.

Big business has managed to trick the public into thinking being "green" means lowering your quality of life, when in fact just the opposite is true.

For years, Detroit said improving mileage would break them financially. Today they're still squabbling about a measly 35mpg standard. In the meantime, I've got a boring sedan in my driveway that gets twice the mileage of a Mini Cooper.

If corporations spent all the money they paid lobbyists and advertisers to warp the public's perception on actual R&D, we could have solved a lot of problems a long time ago.
theBIGyowski wrote:If someone were willing to pony up the billions of dollars it would take to get rid of the buses and provide clean ways to transport everyone around Disney property...they would gladly do it.
The buses shouldn't be there in the first place. The plan was always to connect everything via clean transportation methods. (In Walt's original model of EPCOT, cars and trucks would not even be allowed at ground level and would be hidden at all times to provide a pleasant and safe experience for all guests and residents.)

There's no reason the parks have to be so far apart, but even laid out as they are, monorails could connect them. And if you've ever visited Universal Orlando, there's something to be said for having all the resorts, parks, and commercial areas within walking distance. Six minutes from your hotel room to your favorite attraction is pretty cool.

Anyway, as has been stated, the entire notion of WDW is completely wasteful. The swamp has been filled in so millions of people can burn through resources for non-essential reasons...watching wasteful fireworks shows, riding power-sucking rides, etc.

But originally WDW was planned to at least be useful as an example of what a utopian society could look like. In some ways, it was a success. Many people consider the monorail to be an attraction in itself. They turned the drudgery of public transportation into a "ride" and at the same time showed off a model of convenience and environmental responsibility.

The Magic Kingdom was built with a state-of-the-art garbage collection system which succeeded in providing an improved experience for the guests without drawing attention to itself. The tech could be demonstrated to communities who were planning similar projects.

America seems to have lost its optimism and its will to create great things, so I suppose it's no surprise that the same thing has happened at WDW. It's just sad that they've become a part of lowering our expectations.

(One notable exception...in the Georgia Aquarium, the urinals are designed to be entirely flushless, and there's a little sign explaining how much water is saved with this simple design change. Not something to shout about from the mountaintops, obviously, but it's a nice detail that shows that you don't need to decrease the quality of an experience to be efficient. You just need to think about things a little bit.)

They should be building smart ideas directly into WDW, whether or not the public actually notices them. Whether it's solar panels on the Universe of Energy or actually serving the food grown in The Land, there's a way to do things right that is cost-effective, efficient, educational, and, y'know, cool. With an emphasis on the last part.

Build the ideas right into the park and let them speak for themselves. Beats the hell out of being lectured to by a cartoon character. Walk the walk and all that.

It was this kind of thinking that made WDW seem like an amazing world of endless possibilities when I was a kid, whereas these days it seems to pack all the wonder of a strip mall.

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Post by SG » Mar Fri 20, 2009 10:19 pm

Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, but what about the black-cloud-spewing buses going around the property? I am surprised WDW doesn't already have a smog problem. Here in Chicago, where the CTA is going broke, we're still seeing more and more hybrid buses (they actually appear to give off less pollution to the naked eye). I've heard Disney outsources the buses, but can't they apply a little pressure for something cleaner? Too bad WDW-wide monorails aren't an option - I'd pay extra to use that instead of the buses!

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Post by Joe90 » Mar Sat 21, 2009 8:24 am

SG wrote:Oops... just realized I skipped page 2. I still wonder if there's any chance for hybrid buses.
Hybrid doesn't mean eco friendly. The electricity has to come from somewhere. The power station (assuming it is a fossil fuel station) still has to burn fuel to produce electricity for the batteries to store and in doing so it produces the same polluting gasses as the bus would do. (Although admittedly it may be in slightly smaller quantities.)

Hybrids cannot help the pollution situation as long as the power they use is derived from fossil fuels. The same it true of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
They both clean up the local environment not the global one.

However, electricity (and Hydrogen) is reasonably easy to produce from Solar, wind and wave power. OK WDW doesn't have a lot of wave power but solar and wind should be available.

Any fuel type that you GROW can be carbon neutral or even carbon negative. The CO2 released by the fuel when it is burned is the CO2 removed from the atmosphere by the plant when it was growing.
Any sooty carbon deposits left behind is in effect carbon removed from the atmosphere.

OOps I appear to have rambled of topic. :shock:

My point is WDW has developed some green tinges to its edges. Hopefully over the years it will expand those slowly but surely until it turns a nice deep green. This will probably happen as it becomes financially advantageous to the company and not when the visiting public would like it to. All it takes is imagination and opportunity. :)

Captain Schnemo wrote:For years, Detroit said improving mileage would break them financially. Today they're still squabbling about a measly 35mpg standard. In the meantime, I've got a boring sedan in my driveway that gets twice the mileage of a Mini Cooper.
My VW does 51mpg (US) mini coopers are over hyped junk.

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Post by Captain Schnemo » Mar Sat 21, 2009 3:01 pm

Joe90 wrote:Hybrid doesn't mean eco friendly. The electricity has to come from somewhere.
"Hybrid" just means two kinds of power systems, but if you're talking about the current crop of commercially available hybrid vehicles, the electricity isn't coming from the grid, it's energy that's wasted by a standard internal combustion engine. For example, instead of burning off extra energy as heat when braking, the energy is stored in batteries.

So, in that sense, a regular hybrid vehicle is more eco friendly, assuming the waste generated by building and recycling the batteries isn't greater than the damage done by the CO2 saved. I think that's a safe assumption right now, as long as the hybrid isn't totalled in its first year or two of use.

A plug-in hybrid does increase mileage in exchange for pulling electricity from the grid, but it's not a given that electricity from the grid is a product of fossil fuels. (I couldn't find any stats on Orlando power sources, and for all I know, Reedy Creek does its own power.)

Even so, hybrid vehicles tend to be more efficient (although there's no reason gas-burning cars couldn't be made to be more efficient) and the average plug-in hybrid driver would be still produce less CO2. I think if the grid got all its power from coal, that wouldn't be true, but since the grid is getting cleaner, plug-in hybrids will get better as time goes on.

Assuming the world economy doesn't collapse and we don't totally give up on R&D. If we get the cap-and-trade system going and stop giving subsidies to the worst offenders, this problem will take care of itself.
Hybrids cannot help the pollution situation as long as the power they use is derived from fossil fuels.
They can if they are inherently more efficient, although it's still just a step in the right direction. Even cutting our gasoline consumption in half won't solve the problem, but it will help.
Any fuel type that you GROW can be carbon neutral or even carbon negative.
Just to clarify your point, it can't quite be carbon neutral as long as there are shipping costs. Corn ethanol isn't doing the job it's supposed to be doing (unless the plan all along was to raise food prices), due to transporting and fertilizer (since we make our fertilizer from...petrochemicals!) costs.

Also burning food is just stupid.

If we can get cellulosic ethanol working, we'd be a lot closer to carbon neutral. Then we could turn refuse instead of food into fuel, and we wouldn't need fertilizer, since any old plant material would do. Or maybe something efficient could be done with vats of algae, even using waste carbon to grow the crops.

I'm not convinced liquid fuel burning cars are the future, but I guess we've got to be trying everything at this point. Except for the stuff that can't possibly work, I guess.

It would be great to see Disney taking a lead in the experimentation. They could partner up with American vehicle and energy companies and be the perfect test situation for experimental fleet and grid tech. They could even brag about it at the Universe of Energy.

Ah, but now I'm dreaming!
My point is WDW has developed some green tinges to its edges.
Only very, very slightly. Especially in terms of what Walt had planned, but I'm sure everyone is sick of that song and dance number from me.

Anyway, I'm not trying to lecture you about stuff you already know about, I'm just riffing on your points for the general audience...although most of them probably haven't read this far!
Last edited by Captain Schnemo on Mar Sat 21, 2009 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by js3901 » Mar Sat 21, 2009 4:21 pm

to be truly carbon neutral or carbon negative, we'd have to get these onto the road. hopefully, they can get the self-sustaining model working fully, and out from the "prototype" phase and into production. then, we wouldn't need the "plug-in" hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells.
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Mar Sat 21, 2009 5:39 pm

A perpetual motion machine is impossible, though. As they said, you need energy to compress the air. Their solution to get that energy from compressed air is cute, but it doesn't address how that air was compressed.

The engine would have to both move the car and compress more air, and there's no way to close that loop. Simple physics says you can't simply create energy.

I don't know anything about the tech, but it sounds reasonable that a compressed air engine could still be a good solution, regardless of where the power comes from. It all depends on how much energy is lost in the conversion.

Storing energy as compressed air is an interesting idea. I saw something last week about storing solar energy collected during the day for use at night as heat instead of electricity. They didn't say how efficient it was, but building a tank of liquid is surely a lot cheaper and less wasteful than an enormous array of batteries.

I like to see people thinking outside the box.

If Universe of Energy was any good, we'd all know about this stuff.

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Post by Joe90 » Mar Sun 22, 2009 6:32 am

Captain Schnemo wrote:
Joe90 wrote:Hybrids cannot help the pollution situation as long as the power they use is derived from fossil fuels.
They can if they are inherently more efficient, although it's still just a step in the right direction. Even cutting our gasoline consumption in half won't solve the problem, but it will help.
I'm afraid it doesn't matter how efficient they are, if they derive any part of there production or propulsion from fossil fuel sources they are still adding to the atmospheric pollution burden. Being more efficient just delays the addition a bit it doesn't stop it.
Joe90 wrote:Any fuel type that you GROW can be carbon neutral or even carbon negative.
Captain Schnemo wrote:Just to clarify your point, it can't quite be carbon neutral as long as there are shipping costs. Corn ethanol isn't doing the job it's supposed to be doing ..., due to transporting and fertilizer (since we make our fertilizer from...petrochemicals!) costs.
It can be if the method used to transport the fuel is also carbon neutral. This is possible right now with today's tech. It doesn't happen because fossil fuels are so prevalent and cheap.

I agree completely that corn ethanol isn't good and it is wasteful of farmland better exploited for food production. There are other crops and other fuels besides ethanol. And you are right we should not be adding pertochemically derived fertilizers.

For example some seaweads (and algae) already produce oils that can be used, unaltered, in jet engines in power stations. (The waste produced by oil production using this method happens to be a great natural fertilizer. :) )

Once you have CO2 neutral electrical generation, from wind, solar, or any other alternative, you have pretty much solved the largest problem. Liquid fuels can be derived from water using electricity! Transmission is easy and cheap to local sources.(You don't have to move the liquid fuels just the electricity.)

Captain Schnemo wrote:I'm not convinced liquid fuel burning cars are the future, but I guess we've got to be trying everything at this point. Except for the stuff that can't possibly work, I guess.
electricity + water => hydrogen + oxygen.
Liquid hydrogen "burns" in a fuel cell to produce electricity + water
The electricity moves your car.
This tech is right now.

http://www.topgear.com/content/features ... /03/1.html

Please excuse the journalist. He's a bit mad. And by a bit I mean completely.
Captain Schnemo wrote:Anyway, I'm not trying to lecture you about stuff you already know about, I'm just riffing on your points for the general audience...although most of them probably haven't read this far!
Your comments and observations are always welcome, and are read by me at least :wink: Although I think we may be the only ones left reading this thread.

Could Disney at WDW lead the way in any of this right now? Yes. Could it get it past its share holders right now? No. It is after all an entertainment company not a Green issue R&D lab.

It could get all this info into Innoventions though.

All the garbage WDW produces could fit in one of these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_gasification
That might cut the fuel bill a bit.

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Post by dwellsbct » Mar Sun 22, 2009 6:56 am

I started the topic and I am still reading it . I enjoy reading everyone’s viewpoint. I agree that in the end the Walt Disney Company, is just that a company and unless it results in higher profits or other benefit for the company, being green isn't a top priority . but I am glad to see some green initiatives when I visit WDW> :mickey:
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Post by Joe90 » Mar Sun 22, 2009 7:25 am

dwellsbct wrote:I started the topic :mickey:
Troublemaker :lol:

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Post by Captain Schnemo » Mar Sun 22, 2009 7:56 am

Joe90 wrote:I'm afraid it doesn't matter how efficient they are, if they derive any part of there production or propulsion from fossil fuel sources they are still adding to the atmospheric pollution burden. Being more efficient just delays the addition a bit it doesn't stop it.
The word you used was "help", and it would certainly help if everyone drove a car that was many times more efficient than the one they are currently driving.

I get your point that driving a Prius isn't the same thing as farting rainbows and sunshine, and not driving at all is better than driving a Prius, but that would be true (to lesser extent) for any vehicle.
It can be if the method used to transport the fuel is also carbon neutral.
A fair point. If all power generation were carbon neutral, then we could transport everything everywhere without worrying about CO2. It's still not "free" in the way solar panels are "free", since there's wear and tear and such, but it would make for a much better planet.
This is possible right now with today's tech.
This is an important point, and why I think it would actually be reasonable for WDW to incorporate these techs. If someone were actually doing these things in an extremely visible way, then it would totally shut down the naysayers who claim these things are impossible.

You could just point to WDW, issue a pleasant STFU, and be done with it. It would pay back by making every news story about the topic include an advertisement for WDW and good PR for Disney, improving the public opinion of the brand.

But there I am again, silly me, thinking that the way to make a good company that people like is to do good things that people like. As Eisner always said, it's much easier to trick and exploit your audience while looking down your nose at them with great contempt.
For example some seaweads (and algae) already produce oils that can be used, unaltered, in jet engines in power stations.
The hanging transparent bags they use to grow the algae also have the side effect of looking extremely cool when you light them properly. They'd look great in The Land.

The recording could tell you about how the power moving the very boat you're sitting in was grown right here in this garden.

Dreaming again...
Liquid hydrogen "burns" in a fuel cell to produce electricity + water
Fuel cells have been around forever, though, and they never seem to get any cheaper.

I wonder if simply burning the hydrogen wouldn't be easier. I'm sure it's more wasteful and would require more frequent refueling, but I think whatever solution comes about is probably going to rely on the simplest technology.

Good point about transporting the electrons instead liquid fuel, however. I don't often see that taken into consideration when people talk about hydrogen.
Could it get it past its share holders right now? No. It is after all an entertainment company not a Green issue R&D lab.
I don't actually believe the stockholders are the bottleneck. If Walt wanted to do this, everyone would be on board. It's a matter of perception. If they had a serious plan, they could sell it to the stockholders.

Disney wasn't always a television network or a radio station or a mall store or any of a number of other things. At some point, management took these things on because they wanted to. They can be anything they want to be.

Of course you're right that this would never happen in the current climate, but it's definitely not impossible, and I don't believe the stockholders are to blame. The issue is that they aren't actually interested in this kind of thing.
All the garbage WDW produces could fit in one of these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_gasification
That might cut the fuel bill a bit.
Isn't the focus of those things to dispose of waste (especially the bad stuff)? I thought the power creation was more of a side effect. I wonder how much more power it would create than would take to run the thing.

Even if it only just made enough to power itself, it would be pretty cool, and you could show it off as an attraction. If it was possible to get people to pay to see the Bathroom of the Future, we could surely get kids to pay attention to the Magic Landfill of the Future, particularly if it involves lightning.

You could set up a demonstration in part of a park dedicated to the world of the future...you could call it something like...oh, I dunno..."Future World"...or even..."Tomorrowland"!

Insanity, I know.

Anyway, I wish there were more of this kind of talk when people discuss whether or not a company is "green".

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Post by secondstar » Mar Sun 22, 2009 7:35 pm

I think they are as environmentally conscious as profitability will allow. I know, for example, they use Ladybugs, as opposed to harmful pesticides, to help control insects. They also utilize a vaccuum system for their garbage. As they incinerate their garbage, they use that to heat their water. This also allows them to generate electricity, which is used throughout their parks. And from the book "Married to the Mouse," it stated they are officially listed as a public utility, and thus sell their excess power to Orlando. That seems pretty efficient.
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Post by skull » Mar Sun 22, 2009 10:43 pm

I was on the keys to the kingdom tour a couple weeks ago, and the tour guide told us that the janitorial cast members pull out plastic bottles from the garbage before it's sent through the vacuum system, so while there isn't many recycling cans, most bottles are recycled.

I dunno how true this is or not, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by Esmeralda » Mar Mon 23, 2009 9:43 am

I just read that Disney is going to be really pushing it's Environmentality slogan again, with a goal of getting to a zero carbon footprint (including parks and cruise ships) by...I can't recall the date, but at least there's a goal out there!
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