Epcot used to mean something

[Len90]

I think you are taking that a bit differently than I intended it to be due to me not proofreading my thoughts too well. To a normal person walking into a properly themed EPCOT or any other Disney Park will give you that initial shock where you are trying to take everything in and digest what your senses are sensing. Walt wanted EPCOT to be a futuristic community that was only thought of in books. This was to be a working and functioning example. I think if the theming to the park was better and Disney kept to the vision there would be that initial sensory overload that the guest would get upon entering the gates.

As for what people expect... It should of been "people like us" since those of us who are as obsessed with Disney like you and me will hold the Disney parks to a higher standard. I do think a lot of the general public may have a slightly higher standard for Disney World due to the general cost of a Disney vacation. I agree the general vacationer will not notice almost all of the issues you and I would see. However I do think that empty pavilions and quiet/dead zones in parks will eventually have an effect with a general vacationer.

[mindflipper]

I agree with Wizz that guests are there to basically have fun, but Len90 is right that customers (and they are customers as well as guests) expect something more when they pay so dearly for a ticket purchase. The price of an admission into the park has steadily increased, and to many minds of the general public, they expect something more for having to spend more. Shuttered pavilions, boring rides, and cheap additionls (like that embarrassing Millenium Pavillion back in 2000) does not make you think you're getting your money's worth for that ticket you bought.

For that kind of money, you do expect to be amazed. For that kind of money, you want to have fun like you can have in no other place. EPCOT had been intended to be more than just fun - it was, for the lack of any better term, to be experiential. Future Showcase was to give ideas of the what the world could be some day possibly, while World Showcase was to illustrate there is more to world in its different countries and cultures. There are those who fondly remember EPCOT as being a shining accomplishment of meeting some lofty goals of enlightenment. Nostalgia often clouds reality, as the original EPCOT was flawed as well. They remember EPCOT as it was, but they ignore the one important thing it wasn't - it wasn't perfect. But over the years, EPCOT has become something less than it was. And this does reflect on the fun most guests have their as well. Closed or under-utilized spaces and pavillions (such WoL, JIYI, Odyssey and Communicore) does make the place feel run-down, poorly maintained, and that you're not getting your money's worth. You may have fun, but will you feel like coming back and paying those prices if you feel it isn't worth it? My parents have that feeling. I have friends with kids that have that feeling. Believe or not, when you look at EPCOT the way it is, it does impact how you feel about spending that money for it again.

[MoonPet]

I wish I could see something official out of Disney that says that Pixie Hollow is going into EPCOT. It really just doesn't make any sense.

Most of Corporate America only thinks of short-term gains and not long-term planning. As long as you can keep up the short-term profit everything looks good; however, when that house of cards fall - ouch. It's the mentality that gave us the housing market collapse.

Pixie Hollow is going to be at EPCOT for the duration of the Flower & Garden festival. That's published in the guide. I don't know where it will go after that though.

[MoonPet]

I agree with Wizz that guests are there to basically have fun, but Len90 is right that customers (and they are customers as well as guests) expect something more when they pay so dearly for a ticket purchase. The price of an admission into the park has steadily increased, and to many minds of the general public, they expect something more for having to spend more. Shuttered pavilions, boring rides, and cheap additionls (like that embarrassing Millenium Pavillion back in 2000) does not make you think you're getting your money's worth for that ticket you bought.

For that kind of money, you do expect to be amazed. For that kind of money, you want to have fun like you can have in no other place. EPCOT had been intended to be more than just fun - it was, for the lack of any better term, to be experiential. Future Showcase was to give ideas of the what the world could be some day possibly, while World Showcase was to illustrate there is more to world in its different countries and cultures. There are those who fondly remember EPCOT as being a shining accomplishment of meeting some lofty goals of enlightenment. Nostalgia often clouds reality, as the original EPCOT was flawed as well. They remember EPCOT as it was, but they ignore the one important thing it wasn't - it wasn't perfect. But over the years, EPCOT has become something less than it was. And this does reflect on the fun most guests have their as well. Closed or under-utilized spaces and pavillions (such WoL, JIYI, Odyssey and Communicore) does make the place feel run-down, poorly maintained, and that you're not getting your money's worth. You may have fun, but will you feel like coming back and paying those prices if you feel it isn't worth it? My parents have that feeling. I have friends with kids that have that feeling. Believe or not, when you look at EPCOT the way it is, it does impact how you feel about spending that money for it again.

Interesting that you mentioned Odyssey.

The presentations for Magic and Merriment were held in there this past December and I was shocked to see how shabby it looked inside. The windows have been blacked out with some kind of adhesive, so it is really dark inside. While I recognize that it is used for events/meetings/presentations, there was nothing beautiful about the space. The stage was bare bones, the room was blah. There was no hiding the fact that we were all sitting at round wooden tables (covered by red or green table linens) and sitting on generic stacking chairs. It all felt very temporary despite efforts to make it look seasonal with projected snowflakes, Donald and his nephews posed by some snowy trees(figures, not characters), and pointsettias. I don't remember what the Odyssey looked like when it was open full time, but I can't imagine it was ever this run down looking.

This is in marked contrast to the WDW convention areas. Although the ballroom in the Yacht/Beach club convention center is just a ballroom, it is a beautiful space. I'm sure the same generic tables and chairs are used, but the atmosphere of the room gives it a very different feeling.

[mindflipper]

I wish I could see something official out of Disney that says that Pixie Hollow is going into EPCOT. It really just doesn't make any sense.

Most of Corporate America only thinks of short-term gains and not long-term planning. As long as you can keep up the short-term profit everything looks good; however, when that house of cards fall - ouch. It's the mentality that gave us the housing market collapse.

Pixie Hollow is going to be at EPCOT for the duration of the Flower & Garden festival. That's published in the guide. I don't know where it will go after that though.

In that context, placing the Pixie Hollow there for the Flower & Garden Festival does make sense as long as it just for the duration of the festival. This doesn't sound like any permanent construction but some temporary display for character meet & greet.

[Wizzard419]

Interesting that you mentioned Odyssey.

The presentations for Magic and Merriment were held in there this past December and I was shocked to see how shabby it looked inside. The windows have been blacked out with some kind of adhesive, so it is really dark inside. While I recognize that it is used for events/meetings/presentations, there was nothing beautiful about the space. The stage was bare bones, the room was blah. There was no hiding the fact that we were all sitting at round wooden tables (covered by red or green table linens) and sitting on generic stacking chairs. It all felt very temporary despite efforts to make it look seasonal with projected snowflakes, Donald and his nephews posed by some snowy trees(figures, not characters), and pointsettias. I don't remember what the Odyssey looked like when it was open full time, but I can't imagine it was ever this run down looking.

This is in marked contrast to the WDW convention areas. Although the ballroom in the Yacht/Beach club convention center is just a ballroom, it is a beautiful space. I'm sure the same generic tables and chairs are used, but the atmosphere of the room gives it a very different feeling.

I'm actually surprised they still use that for anything other than storage, I remember going by it in 2001 and the exterior looked heavily dated. It was always kind of oddly placed, it was out of the way since it was on the less used path to the ws, which some people like but is a kiss of death if you're operating any type of store, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is what killed it off. I wonder why they don't block the path off entirely so they wouldn't have to service the restrooms?

[subsonic]

Or, god forbid, they use that space for an attraction which would draw people over there anyways and have a reason to go from FW to WS. Preferably something Horizon's themed

[Wizzard419]

Or, god forbid, they use that space for an attraction which would draw people over there anyways and have a reason to go from FW to WS. Preferably something Horizon's themed

But I thought you wanted something to draw people over there?

[subsonic]

I'm highly offended by that. I'm sure you're prefer more cartoons in Future world.

[Len90]

Or, god forbid, they use that space for an attraction which would draw people over there anyways and have a reason to go from FW to WS. Preferably something Horizon's themed

I'm with you in the idea o an attraction, but I am highly skeptical that it will be Horizons themed. Im sure we can hope, wish, and dream about it; however, it just won't be. I do thin EPCOT is due for an attraction and major facelift for Futre World. Just the extent will come down to costs.

[Wizzard419]

I'm highly offended by that. I'm sure you're prefer more cartoons in Future world.

I honestly am neutral on it, doesn't ruin my visit when they update it and clearly the target audience isn't up in arms either.

Attractions usually lose sponsorship and are closed for a reason, and it isn't because they are just too awesome.

[mindflipper]

The area for the Odyssey is really too small for an attraction. They need to come up with something better to do with that space (i.e., maybe demolish and start again?).

I really didn't care for the Living Seas getting "Nemo-fied". It was poorly done and really doesn't add anything to the pavillion.

Horizons had the problem it became quickly dated. It needed to updated with the constantly changing vision of the future, and that I guessed took to much $$$. I always thought it would be better to take the old WoL (now closed), and then turn Body Wars into "Horizons" like ride that explores the different communities of tomorrow. That way they would only have to update the film and not everything in the ride (like they're doing with Star Tours now). Much more economical. Of course, as Wizz points out, Disney doesn't do much unless they have a sponsor, which is why Horizons closed and so did WoL.

[subsonic]

With that line of thinking, why even theme anything then? Let's make Space Mountain princess themed. Oh, Haunted Mansion should get rid of human looking forms and everything should be Disney villians. You know, World Showcase is boring, but Pixar sells. How about making all the country buildings look like buildings from all the Pixar movies?

I'm not a person that feels Disney shouldn't update their attractions. By all means they should. Horizons was old but had vision. Disney should have updated it, not removed it. I don't buy the whole sponsor thing anymore. Disney should rise above that excuse. I strongly believe in the "theme" in Theme park. Disney is lacking vision lately. And hearing "Oh, it doesn't ruin my visit" just means that Disney can continue to get away with it, but where's the breaking point where there is absolutely no theme left? Why have lands at all?

[Wizzard419]

If it is what the customer wants, then by all means it should be done. I'd rather see the parks do things that keep people interested/spending money than have a park that focuses on fan-service for a small group.

As I have said before, crying, screaming, begging, ranting, and the ever trivial pettion, mean almost nothing unless you are going to pony up the cash and become an investor. Then you get a voice, and if you form a coalition with other like-minded investors your power grows and you might even get heard. Otherwise you might as well just never go again since they are going to do whatever keeps the most guests happy.

[Len90]

With that line of thinking, why even theme anything then? Let's make Space Mountain princess themed. Oh, Haunted Mansion should get rid of human looking forms and everything should be Disney villians. You know, World Showcase is boring, but Pixar sells. How about making all the country buildings look like buildings from all the Pixar movies?

I'm not a person that feels Disney shouldn't update their attractions. By all means they should. Horizons was old but had vision. Disney should have updated it, not removed it. I don't buy the whole sponsor thing anymore. Disney should rise above that excuse. I strongly believe in the "theme" in Theme park. Disney is lacking vision lately. And hearing "Oh, it doesn't ruin my visit" just means that Disney can continue to get away with it, but where's the breaking point where there is absolutely no theme left? Why have lands at all?

The issue with Horizons was it had no corporate sponsorship in the end and there were the reports/claims of the sink hole and near roof collapse of the building. I honestly find both hard to believe and think it was just all out excuses to level the building to make way for Mission SPACE. Sub I'm with you 100% on the vision and theming. Disney needs to get back to the theme in theme park.