The "Theme" in Theme park

[Cheshire Cat]

I remember going on as a child and thinking the preshow was not only neat to watch but it made me think.

The preshow to the Living Seas was beautiful.

[subsonic]

So after I check the forums I move to my google read and what do I find? a new post from Epcot Central. I want to quote something from it.

While much of this EPCOT Center persisted for years, it ultimately changed – much in the same way our world changed. Optimism was replaced by a sarcasm that barely masked cynicism. Voyages of the mind and spirit were replaced by journeys that provided immediate thrills. Intellectual curiosity was replaced with celebrity.

The last three sentences that sum up my thoughts perfectly. Sigh.

[SlueFootSue]

I think there's something a lot of people who are satisfied with what Disney has become tend to forget; Disney would not be where it is today if it wasn't for it's uniqueness, it's power to exceed our expectations, and immerse us in a world that lets us feel we're visting a world of Tomorrow, Fantasy, and Adventure. Would Disney be where it was today if it was made like the rest of the "amusement parks"? Simply put, no.

I agree completely with this statement. I have loved Disney ever since I can remember, and I'm one of the fanatics Sub was talking about lol I think that all of us on the site are Disney fans in some way otherwise why would we be here? That said I don't just accept everything that comes out because when you really love something you want it to be the best it can be, not focusing on money of course. I still believe in what Walt stood for and I think that is what the corporation should be trying to live up to today. I'm not going to say all the changes that have been made are bad I don't believe that's true but there are certain things that are simply for money sake and don't seem to have the same old Disney magic. Also there are areas where Disney is really starting to lack in guest service and that disappoints me the most because as Walt said, you need people to make the dream a reality. I think our executives need to read over some of Walt's quotes about quality. I mean if you look back Walt would go practically bankrupt making some of the early animation features in order to provide outstanding, just plain astounding quality. Money was not the main theme; THEME and STORY were the most important elements.

DIAC1987 Times change, and so does the management behind the scenes of Disney. That willigness to preserve Disney's visions just isn't there anymore. Its replaced with business, commercialism, and the desire to make that extra buck.

While it is true on many fronts I disagree. I'm a seasonal cast member at WDW and I have a romantic and optimistic hope that the old Disney values will come back. I don't think it is fool hardy though and I think it is important not to loose that, many of the cast members, including managers see what is happening, believe in the old way of doing things, and are constantly try to bring their areas back to the traditional Disney way. You can still find the real Disney spirit in small unplanned magical moments. I experienced so many, and so the spirit is still there, I honestly don't think that Disney will ever loose it completely. I mean if no one wanted to go back to Walt's way of doing things we wouldn't even be talking about it.

That fact alone can help. As a cast member I think it is really important to voice your opinion to the company, it can make a difference, I mean look at Figment...yes we didn't get Dream Finder back too because of contractual gumbo but Figment is back. The fans, and cast members who really love Disney have influence to make change. Write letters they have more power than you think. Everyone on this site is so well spoken and could really provide a wealth of knowledge and great opinions.

One example of the Disney magic still appearing - one of my captains used to be friends with Mickey; she was working with him in Toontown when a very young girl came up to her. This little girl had very sadly lost her father three months before and hadn't talked to anyone since even her own mother. Her mom brought her to Disney hoping something would bring her out of her shell. Mickey bent down and the girl got a little closer, then Mickey wiggled his nose...the girls eyes got really wide and she said "Mickey is that really you!!" She told him about how she sleeps with his stuffed animal every night, and then started, for the first time, talking about her dad. Everyone was crying. Now that is Magic, that is the spirit of Walt at his best. Stories, and experiences like this keep me believing that the quality is still their, it may be harder to find, but I sincerely believe Disney will realize, hopefully sooner rather than later, they have to get back to the "Disney" way.

Captain Schnemo - Walt took pride in his work and gave us things we didn't even know we wanted.

I really agree with this point, and just want to thank Captain Schnemo for bringing up the discussion. It is really wonderful to hear people talking about the faith and love for traditional Disney.

"Well, I think by this time my staff, my young group of executives, and everything else, are convinced that Walt is right. That quality will out. . . Give the people everything you can give them. Keep the place as clean as you can keep it. Keep it friendly, you know. . . I think they're convinced and I think they'll hang on after. . . as you say. . .well . . .after Disney." Walt Disney


All of this said I still believe Disney is the most amazing place on earth with the most amazing entertainment and attractions. Yet we need to go back to Walt's quote above for company direction and their is no reason we can’t I mean after all its Disney and "If you can dream it, you can do it"!

[Donalds1Fan]

I think in terms of the "it's all about the money" idea, for me, it really goes to the heart of the Pixar-ification of everything. Disney ceased cranking out their own animation films that were successful, so they look towards Pixar, a known successful commodity. My personal interpretation of it is they want to make that quick buck with little risk, and so they think throwing Pixar themes at everything will make the show/ride/attraction an instant success. Overall context and theme continuity be darned. They'd rather go that route than try and come up with something new and inventive that doesn't rely on characters we know that they don't want to even chance might not be such an insta-hit with people. That's my thoughts anyway. Everest was the last really great non-character ride (and queue!) that I see them doing for a long while. I hope I'm very wrong, though.

One example of the Disney magic still appearing - one of my captains used to be friends with Mickey; she was working with him in Toontown when a very young girl came up to her. This little girl had very sadly lost her father three months before and hadn't talked to anyone since even her own mother. Her mom brought her to Disney hoping something would bring her out of her shell. Mickey bent down and the girl got a little closer, then Mickey wiggled his nose...the girls eyes got really wide and she said "Mickey is that really you!!" She told him about how she sleeps with his stuffed animal every night, and then started, for the first time, talking about her dad. Everyone was crying. Now that is Magic, that is the spirit of Walt at his best. Stories, and experiences like this keep me believing that the quality is still their, it may be harder to find, but I sincerely believe Disney will realize, hopefully sooner rather than later, they have to get back to the "Disney" way.

Just wanted to say what a beautiful story that is. It has me right now.

[DisBeamer]

Here's the rub, all of those aspects ARE overlooked now because of Nemo. Sure, you know to look for them because you rememebr what one was and have been diving there. Do you think people visiting today think about how the Seas were made? I remember going on as a child and thinking the preshow was not only neat to watch but it made me think. I learned. I had a greater appreciation for the Seas. The Nemo thing is the quick buck. Why couldn't we "Follow Mr. Joe Diver through the ride as he guided us though different aspects of the sea only to be caught in the EAC and we zoom through some underwater adventure"?

This is the thing that really ticks me off most about the Nemo ride (apart from the fact that it's not even particularly well done - yes projecting cartoons onto the fishtank screen is a cool idea, but there's so much more they could have done, and the animatronic elements they put in are... nondisneyfriendlyword here).

There is no reason for that attraction to 'require' a Nemo theme. They could have used that projection tech to make an original, interesting and *gasp* vaguely educational story that exploited the awesomeness that is (was) that aquarium rather than ignoring the real sea life and reef they have in favor of overlaying a fake one and giving us the EXACT SAME STORY as the movie. It's not only crass commercialism, it's lazy. I can almost forgive one or the other, but both together I can't handle.

I wouldn't begrudge them having the Turtle Talk, or some other Nemo themed thingamabob inside. In fact, I think that'd make sense, to have your fish 'star' be part of it if you'd like to include an area of the pavilion that is more kid oriented (a train of thought that I don't necessarily agree with but I'm willing to compromise on).

But as part, not the whole thing. The whole 'more is better - all Nemo all the time' design concept they've gone with reeks of a sales pitch to me. And I'm not naive enough to not realize that the Disney parks have always been eager to sell you stuff. But I've also never found it as blatant as I do in that redesign. Maybe it's just because the Seas pavilion is so large compared to, say, Pooh or something else that ends in a gift shop. Or maybe because it's so out of place in FutureWorld that it stands out more.

While it is true on many fronts I disagree. I'm a seasonal cast member at WDW and I have a romantic and optimistic hope that the old Disney values will come back. I don't think it is fool hardy though and I think it is important not to loose that, many of the cast members, including managers see what is happening, believe in the old way of doing things, and are constantly try to bring their areas back to the traditional Disney way.

This is encouraging. Any chance you'll be working your way up to CEO? I know they like to promote from within. Failing that, though, it's nice to see there are Disney lovers who still actively seek out employment with the company, rather than just disgruntled locals.

That story about Mickey was so sweet. I'm with Donalds1Fan, reachin' for the kleenex (and scaring coworkers >_<).

[RREng77]

I'll admit, Disney theme parks' theming has become more and more "mainstream." In Walt's day, both DL and WDW maintained a common theme: inspiration from innovation and imagination. The properties continue to maintain a common theme (albeit a different one): prolific piles of profit.

Don't get me wrong, profit is a very real need for nearly every business. Boeing chooses to create aircraft, but its job is to make profit. Toyota chooses to make automobiles, et al, but its real job is to make profit. Could it be that Walt was SO good at what he did that we completely missed his ability to make money from us while we went on a vacation? Maybe, but that doesn't make the magic any less real or the parks any less special.

The thing I'm looking for more than anything (much like many others who have already posed on this thread): traditional "Disney magic" with non-traditional references and technology. That was the winning combination for Walt, and its power is just as strong today.

[Donalds1Fan]

I've read a lot of Disney biographies, and I think what made Walt do different too was that he saw money as a means to an end, not the end all, be all. He wanted more money, yes, but he wanted it so he could pour it right back into all of his new ideas, whether it was his next animated feature, then later DL, and later WDW. He didn't want to make it just to hoard it; he wanted to make it to further his vision and make his dreams come true.

He was one of a kind.

[Len90]

They are sticking to the theme, but you don't realize it. For tomorrowland, Disney has incorporated these new interactive attractions that years ago many thought would never exist. This goes along with Future World too. Soarin' and Turtle Talk use high tech ride systems.

I see what you're saying here, but I'm not sure I'd count that as 'theme'. The mechanics of Expedition Everest are pretty advanced, too. Does that make 'vision of the future' part of Asia's theme?

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the higher tech of a lot of the new rides they're producing makes them pretty cool (TSM, for instance), but I don't know that I'd say tech = theme just because the theme is -supposed- to be futuristic. That would imply that, say, Small World and Pirates have the same theme, would it not? Or that they would fit into the same themed area, because the tech that makes the rides go is similar/nearly identical. I suspect you'd agree that's not the case, so why does it get the rides a pass just 'cause they're built in TL/FW when the story of them has nothing to do with the future (thinking specifically of things like talking turtles and laughing monsters)?

I am just trying to show how Disney execs and Imagineers are thinking. A huge part of the future is the evolution of Technology, and I do see Disney implementing attractions with technology in mind. It does go against the accepted theming idea that people have, but when you put all of Tomorrowland in perspective, there is a nice evolution of technology in it.

oah, I think disbeamer covered my feeling on this. Technology does NOT equal theme. The technology, as rdeacon says, "should be transparent". It should be part of the theme to immerse us into new worlds. Indiana Jones ride is a good example. That's a highly technical ride but you don't think about it while on it. Based on Len90's view, opening in 1967 POTC should have been built in Tomorrowland. With all the used of animatroics it was really technical. Hmm, I completely disagree here.

Sub, you make a great point. I can't disagree with you on this, but once again Tomorrowland is themed on the future which does entail technology.

Len90's bizarre interpretation of "theme" is a little depressing, but it's totally understandable. If you never saw the old version and you think the new version is great, it's easy to make excuses.

I don't know where you see the "future" in future world.

The technology is sophisticated for attractions like Turtle Talk and whatnot... but in the end, that technology isn't what is being presented in these shows. epcot no longer presents futuristic technologies to it's guests. The only things presented in epcot are modern test vehicles, outdated energy sources, centrifuges and singing fish.

In fact the only thing futuristic about Future World is the new ending to SSE. That's also pretty scary considering, it's a highly unlikely future for quite some time.

I admit that I am too young to know how Disney was back in the day. The earliest trip that I remember is one from 1999-2000. By this time Future World was already Yester World. Too me Future world has kept with its theme. Futuristic ideas from the past.

Well this is just MY OWN HONEST OPINION. We can all disagree, but in the end it is still Disney. (as I duck away from the flying cheese)

[slylandro]

I've read a lot of Disney biographies, and I think what made Walt do different too was that he saw money as a means to an end, not the end all, be all. He wanted more money, yes, but he wanted it so he could pour it right back into all of his new ideas, whether it was his next animated feature, then later DL, and later WDW. He didn't want to make it just to hoard it; he wanted to make it to further his vision and make his dreams come true.

He was one of a kind.

How many times in his life Disney became poor and ''called all-in'' just because he had an idea, a dream and he didn't want to let it go away in the name of stability. How many time did he invest all just because he dreamed. I think that Disney direction is going on the wrong way and lost some of the value that Walt defended the most. However some of them are still carried out. Namely, wildlife preservation and to an extend education. When I go to WDW...I don't go there because of the ride...I just go there to dream.

Dream, this is what they lack, they lack someone who is creative, visionaire, risky on the side. They lost sight of what we have now is never enough. Even in their movie, half of them are NOT even close to the classic we grown up with.

-creativity
-dream
-innovation
-passion

Those are the prime directive. This is what the community should remind to whoever is willing to listen to us.

Now...Talking is kind of the lazy way. We rant, we discuss...fine by me. Now, we should do something....and I do not think that this something should take the form of a rant, a petition or anything similar. Here what I suggest and give me comment about what you think. We gather as much people as we can and each and everyone of us write down a story of them that is related to Disney and the value that you think they protect or put on the front desk again. Instead of saying you do this bad blah blah blah. We tell them the story of how Disney changed our lives in the past. We finish this whole concept by adding a final text regarding the future. In this conclusion, we could write something along the line of: this is the story of us, this is the story of what we like about Disney, this is the story of value that are coming to a end. Those text are not about critics. those text are about the value that Walt Disney himself believed in. Walt said it himself: let's not loose sight of one thing, that it all started by a mouse. This mouse is a dream. This dream is dying. (you got the idea ...should be even longer)

So, do you think this is a good idea?

PS: I have a lot of respect to every Disney cast. They are making a difference in every aspect of the way. We can feel that they are proud to be cast member and they are part of the magic. THANK YOU ALL OF YOU WHO ARE OR WERE CAST MEMBER!

Simon Marcoux aka slylandro 19 year old, dreamer and future imagineer who care about the value that Walt Disney and his legacy granted him.

Quebec, Canada

[DIAC1987]

=================
While it is true on many fronts I disagree. I'm a seasonal cast member at WDW and I have a romantic and optimistic hope that the old Disney values will come back. I don't think it is fool hardy though and I think it is important not to loose that, many of the cast members, including managers see what is happening, believe in the old way of doing things, and are constantly try to bring their areas back to the traditional Disney way. You can still find the real Disney spirit in small unplanned magical moments. I experienced so many, and so the spirit is still there, I honestly don't think that Disney will ever loose it completely. I mean if no one wanted to go back to Walt's way of doing things we wouldn't even be talking about it.

That fact alone can help. As a cast member I think it is really important to voice your opinion to the company, it can make a difference, I mean look at Figment...yes we didn't get Dream Finder back too because of contractual gumbo but Figment is back. The fans, and cast members who really love Disney have influence to make change. Write letters they have more power than you think. Everyone on this site is so well spoken and could really provide a wealth of knowledge and great opinions.

One example of the Disney magic still appearing - one of my captains used to be friends with Mickey; she was working with him in Toontown when a very young girl came up to her. This little girl had very sadly lost her father three months before and hadn't talked to anyone since even her own mother. Her mom brought her to Disney hoping something would bring her out of her shell. Mickey bent down and the girl got a little closer, then Mickey wiggled his nose...the girls eyes got really wide and she said "Mickey is that really you!!" She told him about how she sleeps with his stuffed animal every night, and then started, for the first time, talking about her dad. Everyone was crying. Now that is Magic, that is the spirit of Walt at his best. Stories, and experiences like this keep me believing that the quality is still their, it may be harder to find, but I sincerely believe Disney will realize, hopefully sooner rather than later, they have to get back to the "Disney" way.
====================

And that optimism is why I still work there. The hope that someday, things will change for the better, things will change in a way that will make Walt Disney himself proud.

[kcarts]

Unfortunately, for many of us who seek our utopian Disney World or Disneyland, the parent company that owns Disney has diversified too much. Used to be the imagineers could concentrate on just thinking up whatever they wanted. Now they have to do it within a context of a certain theme. Most likely the latest movie that Disney or Pixar is releasing. Take the reimagining of POTC. Instead of having free will on what they wanted to do, they had to do it all the while fitting in Jack Sparrow.

When I walk into a park I see all kinds of Disney themed things. Just not what many of us consider Disney. The theme parks have become a vehicle for advertising for Disney and Pixar and ABC. One could argue that these are all Disney themed things. Take the ESPN club on the Boardwalk. Take whatever the old "Mission to Mars" attraction happens to be this month. Take any billboard you see for an primetime ABC program in Hollywood Studios.

Has Disney gone too commercial? Absolutely. Has is drifted from many of us sense is quintessential Disney? Sure. Is it not Disney themed as we sit here in late 2008? No.

In twenty or thirty years many of the young kids we see in Disney parks today will probably have the same lament as many of us do now. The Disney parks just aren't what they used to be.

New park idea: Vintage Kingdom. All the old attractions as we remember them from all Disney parks.

[slylandro]

Well let's do something about it like I said...if we only rant...nothing will change...ever!

[SlueFootSue]

Donalds1Fan

I've read a lot of Disney biographies, and I think what made Walt do different too was that he saw money as a means to an end, not the end all, be all. He wanted more money, yes, but he wanted it so he could pour it right back into all of his new ideas, whether it was his next animated feature, then later DL, and later WDW. He didn't want to make it just to hoard it; he wanted to make it to further his vision and make his dreams come true.

He was one of a kind.

This is a great point I completely agree. He truly was unique when it came to his view on money. It was never the focus.

slylandro

Here what I suggest and give me comment about what you think. We gather as much people as we can and each and everyone of us write down a story of them that is related to Disney and the value that you think they protect or put on the front desk again. Instead of saying you do this bad blah blah blah. We tell them the story of how Disney changed our lives in the past. We finish this whole concept by adding a final text regarding the future. In this conclusion, we could write something along the line of: this is the story of us, this is the story of what we like about Disney, this is the story of value that are coming to a end. Those text are not about critics. those text are about the value that Walt Disney himself believed in. Walt said it himself: let's not loose sight of one thing, that it all started by a mouse. This mouse is a dream. This dream is dying. (you got the idea ...should be even longer)

HEY!! What a great idea! What does everyone think? I think it is a good idea if we can express our opinions professional, clearly, and passionately it would be worth a try

[Captain Schnemo]

I wouldn't begrudge them having the Turtle Talk, or some other Nemo themed thingamabob inside.

I wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. They've had (original) cartoon characters in there before, to explain things and tell stories and that's fine.

But, as you say, the change in focus from reality to cartoon is incredibly depressing. If you're going to make a Nemo attraction, live fish are superfluous to telling that story. Even Crush doesn't really have anything interesting to say. Basic facts about the ocean, but nothing at all about human interaction with the ocean and what sort of research and potential is out there. I love nature shows, but just talking about fish and the environment is the realm of a zoo or Animal Kingdom.

What aspect of any part of Epcot has anything at all to do with Nemo? The real Captain Nemo has a closer relation to the theme!

A huge part of the future is the evolution of Technology, and I do see Disney implementing attractions with technology in mind.

The problem with this logic is that all Disney attractions use technology in interesting ways and there's nothing special about Tomorrowland in that respect. The Country Bears and the Tiki Room used cutting edge tech, but it had nothing to do with the theme. The technology is only the canvas on which the attraction is painted.

Too me Future world has kept with its theme.

OK, so what's futuristic about...fossil fuels, the internal combustion engine, hang gliding, singing fish, Flash animation, and stuff you can find at the Best Buy?

There's almost nothing even slightly futuristic there. Whole pavilions are based on outdated tech...outdated even at the time of their creation. The Energy pavilion is a complete joke.

Not everything in Future World lived up to the motif (Kitchen Kabaret was always a huge WTF attraction), but at least they were trying. There's no evidence that there is any sense of thinking about the future with the new stuff.

Well let's do something about it like I said...if we only rant...nothing will change...ever!

Not to be a huge buzzkill, but people have been trying to do something about this for years. There are tons of blogs, write-in campaigns, petitions, even protests. People complain at stockholder meetings...

...what is there to be done?

If you've got a great idea, I am totally on board, but if it's just more writing about the topic, Disney has seen that and doesn't care. It's not like they don't know that this sentiment is alive among their customers. Disney management actively dislikes and mocks us. They even made up a derogatory term to describe us ("foamers", I think?).

Disney is openly hostile to us, and unless we can think of a way to convince them that what they're doing is wrong (and it isn't even necessarily wrong, given their goals), we're not going to get anywhere. And whatever argument we have, it's got to be a pretty good one, because it's got to be better than the billions they're seeing in profits.

If you told a Disney exec Sue's moving story about Mickey, they'd probably just laugh. These people hate us.

[Future Guy]

Disney management actively dislikes and mocks us. They even made up a derogatory term to describe us ("foamers", I think?).

Y'know, I've seen Disney's attitude toward people like us one other time. In late 2002, I spent two weeks working for a little e-commerce company that sold computer parts and peripherals through a distributor. Their problem was that management was clueless, and their business model was seriously flawed. As a result, they kept running over their credit limit with the distributor and were unable to ship orders. Predictably, there were lots of angry calls to their 1-800 number from customers who had paid for an item (sometimes months earlier) and had never received it. Most of these calls were answered by voicemail, and the call center staff had lots of fun listening to these angry voicemails and mocking these customers, all of whom had an entirely legitimate and understandable grievance. Not surprisingly, the company went out of business soon after.

Of course, Disney's not going to go out of business. But I sure as hell hope that the current economic situation pinches them hard enough to make them unable to afford to so casually alienate a segment of their market like this. Probably won't happen, I know. But, as the Disney marketing messages say, when you wish upon a star Jiminy Cricket makes your dreams come true. Or something like that.