The "Theme" in Theme park

[subsonic]

There's a discussionTell me something good that has been started here and it's raised my interest once again. I was going to leave it as a post but I feel like it's important to voice. I know this isn't what Subsonic Radio is about but, hey, the news isn't updated that much so why not use it to rant.

Basically, the discussion is about how the Disney parks has declined and why Captain Schnemo hasn't been to the parks in years.

Obviously, since I run this website I must be a Disney fan. This is true, but I'm not obsessive like some people. I like some of the earlier 2d movies and I don't have a lot of Disney merchandise; I own a hat or two, some posters, and frames. Basically, I'm a fan of the parks. I grew up with Disneyland being 45 minutes away. So, that's said: Yes, I'm a Disney fan, I have an annual pass, I still visit the parks, and I completely agree with Schnemo. I feel Disney has lost sight of what "Disney" is supposed to be. A THEME park.

Sure, schnemo hasn't been to the parks in X number of years but in the days of the internet one can easily grasp what Disney is NOT doing right. From articles to forums to pictures to videos. These can all be found on the internet. I'm sure Schnemo uses all of these forms to keep up-to-date. He IS a Disney fan who hasn't become mindless and wants to keep faith in what Disney used to represent.

I think there's something a lot of people who are satisfied with what Disney has become tend to forget; Disney would not be where it is today if it wasn't for it's uniqueness, it's power to exceed our expectations, and immerse us in a world that lets us feel we're visting a world of Tomorrow, Fantasy, and Adventure. Would Disney be where it was today if it was made like the rest of the "amusement parks"? Simply put, no. And that's where Disney is taking us.

Take a step back and think about the word "Theme".
-noun
a unifying or dominant idea, motif, etc., as in a work of art

Unifying... think about it.

Disney parks used to rely heavily on theme. I think certain lands and areas still do this well. New Orleans Square and Liberty Square, Critter Country (though, I could do without Pooh), and Frontierland are some. Oh, and let's not forget Fantasyland. Others, mostly areas that entail the future have become not so future. Tomorrowland with the addition of cartoons. Epcot's Futureworld with the addition of Nemo and Soarin'. World showcase with the addition of Kim Possible and Three Caballeros.

I could go on for a while with more things that Disney is not making the right choices on but the "Theme" park is what is the most apparent. I'm not saying these attractions are bad in fact some are quite good. The just don't belong. At what point does Disney lose it's "Theme park" completely. I simply want you to think about that for a while.

[billville]

Well said sub! I agree with a lot you have to say and think its important to never forget where all of the theme parks began. That is with all the joy and excitement that Disneyland was all about when it first opened. I fondly remember all that fun and adventure when i was young and my parents would take my brother, sister, and i to Disneyland. It used to be the happiest day of my life and still is everytime i go to the parks!

I tend to look at things in a different way though when I see all the new changes. Yes the theming of the past Disneyland was much more elaborate and much more imaginative than the theming of today, and yes things fit more appropriately. Now when i see all the new changes i just tend to go into it with an open mind and accept the fact that times change. When i go to Disneyland I want to have fun and enjoy myself. I will always have my memories of the Disneyland of the past and I always look forward to making new ones with my own family.

Im sure we all hope that Disney starts to focus more on the theming and what the parks really stand for. Whatever that future may be i will still always enjoy the parks and just have fun no matter what. It shall be interesting to see though where the theme parks will be headed in future.

[boilerbabe]

I agree with alot of what Sub has said but I also agree with billville. I have never been to DL but I was brought up on Disney and the magic started when I was 3! That's when my parent's started taking me to WDW! I still have vivid memories of that first trip too. We would go every year or every other year! I've been to Disney a total 15 times in my lifetime so far.

I do remember the originals and classic attractions of Disney and there are many that I miss but I look at it with an open mind, as billville said. I do wish Disney would go back to it's roots of originality, but I'm not going to poo poo Disney and say I don't wish to go back. I am able to still find the magic in everything and it's still my most favorite place on Earth! I've turned my husband into a Disney nut and we hope someday when we have a child, to take him/her to Disney! I want them to have that same magic that I had growing up as a child, even if it is slightly different. We are all entitled to our opinions. But, since we can't make Disney change and do thiings as we want, then we just have to go with it as to not lose that magic completely! Does that make sense?!

[DIAC1987]

Times change, and so does the management behind the scenes of Disney. That wilingness to preserve Disney's visions just isn't there anymore. Its replaced with business, commercialism, and the desire to make that extra buck. Walt Disney didn't grow up in the kind of world we are living in today, otherwise, his dreams for a theme park may not have even been met.

Disney has changed because the times have changed. And unless we have a strong push by the higher-ups in the Disney company to totally fix things, it will sadly remain this way for years to come.

However, that being said, I still work for Disney because guess what, its still Disney. The magic of Walt Disney still irks within the walls and confides of Magic Kingdom and Walt Disney World. As long as there is stil an ounce of Disney magic left, I'll still be there, working there, trying to preserve what Disney himself always wanted: a world in which allows you to escape the problems and issues of the real world. Who knows, maybe down the road we'll go back down the right path, the right direction towards the glory days of before.

What's wrong with a little hope, eh?

[Future Guy]

The Disney I became acquainted with in the early 80s still had some people who had worked with Walt and were interested in preserving his way of doing things. The folks who run the company now see it as more of a series of properties to be developed and exploited. To be sure, their way of doing things has been more profitable, but something has certainly been lost in the process.

People like Walt Disney only come along once a century. It was inevitable, perhaps, that his company would eventually fail to live up to what the man himself was.

[elizabethswann]

I agree so much. It's not about the happiness and the magic anymore now. It's all about the money, the many ways to profit from different movies, television shows and such. No one cares about the way things were before. Disneyland has gone through many changes since its opening in 1955 and now it seems that people don't care much anymore. There's no more originality. It's all about adding a ride and slapping on a name that people are familiar with such as Indiana Jones or Toy Story or Cars.

The magic isn't really there anymore. It's more about profiting from the big names and to make it better for the kids. Granted, yes, some of the rides may be fun but what happened to the creativity in making the memories? And boosting the prices for tickets wasn't a good idea either especially during the tough time with the economy. Back in the day, Disneyland relied on themes like Sub said and now, it seems that people don't care anymore. Fantasyland seems to be the same, Mickey's Toontown's bland since the Jolly Trolly was removed, Tomorrowland's hopeless, Adventureland's surviving solely on the Indiana Jones Adventure and the Tiki Room, New Orleans Square's the only popular place thanks to HM and POTC, Critter Country's been ruined thanks to Pooh and Main Street USA's the only one I can think of that still fits the way Walt has seen the land.

I miss the magic. I miss when Disneyland was actually fun. The last couple of times I've been there, I wanted to just take pictures and not go on rides for a change. Who knows if I will be that way for the years to come? I've lost motivation to even have fun there (if there is such thing as fun at Disneyland anymore) and take pictures so I can actually enjoy the park the proper way.

[DisBeamer]

I am able to still find the magic in everything and it's still my most favorite place on Earth! I've turned my husband into a Disney nut and we hope someday when we have a child, to take him/her to Disney! I want them to have that same magic that I had growing up as a child, even if it is slightly different.

This helped crystallize something for me (so, thanks! ). I agree that the theme is fading from theme park. Anyone who's traveled with me to WDW in recent years will attest to this. Previously, with attractions that I didn't like, I'd still agree to go on them with other people (with the exceptions of the stunt show, and the backlot tour), because I wasn't ... fundamentally opposed to them. Last trip I found myself listing off a bunch of things I wasn't going to do just because of where or what they were. Is it because I'm getting older and crabbier? I'm sure that's part of it. But the fact of the matter is there are things in 'the world' now that bother me to the point I don't even want to acknowledge them. The Laugh Floor is what finally pushed me over the edge, I think. And y'know what? The attraction itself isn't that bad. It's the fact that it further dilutes (and pollutes) the theme of my favorite land that makes me angry. And sad, I guess. And a little afraid. Because it means that the people in charge don't even see why it doesn't belong there. How do I have hope when I have evidence that the people in charge don't 'get it'?

Getting back to the quote up there ^, I think one of the key differences nowadays is that I find the magic, though I might mean that in a slightly different sense than boilerbabe does. I mean, before when I walked into a Disney park, the magic was -right there-. Magic all up in your grille, as it were. Now, I think if you want to find it, you have to look for it. I think it makes a huge difference if you grew up with the parks, and you have the happy memories and certain details that you seek out and cherish and enjoy. I have a strong suspicion a lot of the people who just 'do Disney' for their kids and don't have the memories a lot of us do about what it used to be will never see the parks as being as special as we do. And I think that's because of the fundamental change in the parks themselves, more so than any change in the people visiting for the first time. And I feel kinda bad for those people.

But, as long as I can still find that spark of magic for myself, I'll keep going. I don't mind having to be more active to derive the same enjoyment. It's sad that there are things I have to actively avoid in the parks now, lest they upset me, but I've accepted that's how it is, and will be, until the vision of the company shifts. If it does. At this point, given the number of those (soon to be disillusioned?) first timers, and casual visitors going, deciding not to go myself is only hurting me. Disney won't notice, but I'd miss it. So, while holding out hope for a change, I'll enjoy what I can of it - which is thankfully still the majority - while I can.

[Len90]

Sub, I think I have to disagree with you on Disney going away from the theme. They are sticking to the theme, but you don't realize it. For tomorrowland, Disney has incorporated these new interactive attractions that years ago many thought would never exist. This goes along with Future World too. Soarin' and Turtle Talk use high tech ride systems. Yes I know Soarin' is based off an erector set, but think of all that it entails to make this attraction come too. The Monsters Inc. Laugh Factory and Turtle Talk are pretty high tech. They incorporate a new type of audience interaction where no two shows can ever be alike. This is great for people who like to go to Disney a lot and MAY get tired of an attraction (definitely not me!). Each time a person goes on it, they get a different experience. Then there is Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin.... this is still an interactive attraction. Yeah it is based on a movie, but the ride itself is interactive and when you think about it, futuristic. It is another interactive ride system that when you think about it, is quite complex.

DHS: IMO has stuck perfectly to it's theme. The park is all based on movies, and it shows this throughout.
AK: I don't see any issues here YET!
EPCOT: World Showcase is still okay, but that Kim Possible attraction would kill this theme.
Future World: It is in need of work, but what Disney has done, has not taken the area off
its theme.
MK: The park has kept its lands separated and the theming is still on target in all parts

In the end, Disney has done its job. It is very tough and costly to update attractions continuously. Unfortunately this reflected mostly in the themed lands that focus on the future and not the present or past. The future keeps changing as we move on in time. The lands have changed, and IMHO, I think they have tried to keep up with the time. The attractions have evolved dramatically overtime and still try to keep with the theme. It is a bit of a stretch, but these new ride systems are EXTREMELY complex.

[DisBeamer]

They are sticking to the theme, but you don't realize it. For tomorrowland, Disney has incorporated these new interactive attractions that years ago many thought would never exist. This goes along with Future World too. Soarin' and Turtle Talk use high tech ride systems.

I see what you're saying here, but I'm not sure I'd count that as 'theme'. The mechanics of Expedition Everest are pretty advanced, too. Does that make 'vision of the future' part of Asia's theme?

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the higher tech of a lot of the new rides they're producing makes them pretty cool (TSM, for instance), but I don't know that I'd say tech = theme just because the theme is -supposed- to be futuristic. That would imply that, say, Small World and Pirates have the same theme, would it not? Or that they would fit into the same themed area, because the tech that makes the rides go is similar/nearly identical. I suspect you'd agree that's not the case, so why does it get the rides a pass just 'cause they're built in TL/FW when the story of them has nothing to do with the future (thinking specifically of things like talking turtles and laughing monsters)?

[Cheshire Cat]

I disagree with quite a few of your conclusions Len90, but this one struck me the most:

Future World: It is in need of work, but what Disney has done, has not taken the area off its theme.

I don't know where you see the "future" in future world.

The technology is sophisticated for attractions like Turtle Talk and whatnot... but in the end, that technology isn't what is being presented in these shows. epcot no longer presents futuristic technologies to it's guests. The only things presented in epcot are modern test vehicles, outdated energy sources, centrifuges and singing fish.

In fact the only thing futuristic about Future World is the new ending to SSE. That's also pretty scary considering, it's a highly unlikely future for quite some time.

[js3901]

we've had these discussions before at various times within these forums. many of the older threads are chock full of these same sentiments, both "against the grain" like Schnemo feels and Sub (and many others) have posted, or the "Everything's Cool" mentality like Len90 is saying.

I, personally, have to agree with Sub on this one, as I do feel that Disney, for all the wonder and magic it has given over the years, has lost it's way in the way of themes in it's theme parks. Yes, the lands are separte, yes it can be argued that new interactive technology is "futuristic" in it's way. But, someone tell me why something like Monsters, inc belongs in TOMORROWLAND. sure, the technology used in it's interactive parts, but what do Monsters have to do with the "Future that never was" that Walt originally envisioned?

At this point in time, I am inclined to agree that AK, though a bit lacking in attraction department as far as quantity, is sticking to the themes of it's lands as it is right now. However, the other parks are in serious need of a tune-up. I believe, and HOPE that the new management of the company see these problems and decide to act on them, rather than ignore the problems until it's too late to do anything about them (ala Wonders of Life).

[slylandro]

There is one point that irk me a lot. It is about The Sea. One thing that Disney does is that they get involved in many aspect and debate of our current society. Wall-E is a rant about the American Way of Life. On the other hand they do not only rant they also do things. In The Sea, if they didn't try to stunt it a bit (by adding Nemo in the process) they would have been forced to close.

I have been diving in those tanks and from what I have heard while talking to those who are responsible. The main goal of this tank is not an attraction. Most of the money that is going to this ride goes to the living aquarium. In order to make it more interesting to the public they put Nemo on it as a rising brand name. Aside from the fact that the shell ride is kind of boring. The way they put many learning center based on nemo inside is quite interesting. Furthermore, most of the bigger animal that are inside the tank are there because they were either found injured or otherwise simply in danger. It cost them a lot to upkeep this attraction and the only inters they have in this attraction is to study, heal, understand and many more aspect of the sea. I remember that they once had a dolphin that came from sea world and they could not heal him because their hand were full. Even if they are rival, they still work together to make a difference.

In a nutshell, do not overlook the scientific, society, value, goal, meaning of the Sea based on the fact that it is ''sponsored'' by nemo

[Donalds1Fan]

I, personally, have to agree with Sub on this one, as I do feel that Disney, for all the wonder and magic it has given over the years, has lost it's way in the way of themes in it's theme parks. Yes, the lands are separte, yes it can be argued that new interactive technology is "futuristic" in it's way. But, someone tell me why something like Monsters, inc belongs in TOMORROWLAND. sure, the technology used in it's interactive parts, but what do Monsters have to do with the "Future that never was" that Walt originally envisioned?

At this point in time, I am inclined to agree that AK, though a bit lacking in attraction department as far as quantity, is sticking to the themes of it's lands as it is right now. However, the other parks are in serious need of a tune-up. I believe, and HOPE that the new management of the company see these problems and decide to act on them, rather than ignore the problems until it's too late to do anything about them (ala Wonders of Life).

I couldn't agree more. I love WDW and truly enjoy going there. But the theme issue gets my goat, as does the "Sacrifice the experience for a quick buck" idea. Disney still does a great job with a lot, but it's not the same as it was even 15 years ago, and that's sad to me. I have massive problems with Tomorrowland as well. I love Buzz, but it has little place in Tomorrowland. Monster's has no place there, and the only justification I can see for Stitch is the teleportation aspect. The latest thing to really get my goat was redecorating the Caribbean Beach rooms to give them a Nemo theme. Nemo = Australia, NOT the Caribbean. It's that kind of blatant disresgard for theme that annoys the daylights out of me. It's like they think people are so Nemo crazy they won't notice. My favorite Mod resort has now been ruined for me thanks to that (I have no interest in the Pirates rooms, which at least was set in the Caribbean!).

Personally, I'm of the feeling that when I see something that I think Disney is doing wrong, I'll speak up. They won't know that anyone cares otherwise. My hopes aren't high for the future, but one never knows. Walt's one of those people you just wish could have lived forever. He "got it." So many else running it now clearly don't.

[Captain Schnemo]

First of all...I feel so important being front page news! And my teachers said I'd never amount to anything!

I mean, before when I walked into a Disney park, the magic was -right there-.

A major issue is that a lot of people never saw Disney the way it was 20 years ago. Either they were too young, or have only recently discovered Disney and are now hopped up to talk about it on the intarweb. Us old farts can get cranky when we compare the new Disney to the way it used to be, but if you discovered Disney a few years ago and you think it's great, we're going to sound like a lot of grumpy haters.

People like us typically get filtered out of the conversation as well. Only the superfans are going to go online and waste their spare time talking about something like this. Anyone who mostly liked Disney the old way, but doesn't like it any more, just quietly stopped going years ago and probably doesn't want to spend any more time thinking about the issue.

People who currently love Disney enough to spend their spare time talking about it are much more likely to enjoy things the way they are.

A lot of Disney forums are insufferable echo chambers where every new thing is the greatest ever. It's nice to be able to come here and actually talk like adults instead of infomercials.

I can understand that it's hard to even believe that Disney used to be so much better. A lot of people talk poetically about stuff from their youth that really doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you take a second look. And young people tend to think that their generation is the greatest in human history and that modern things tend to be better than things they've only heard about.

Len90's bizarre interpretation of "theme" is a little depressing, but it's totally understandable. If you never saw the old version and you think the new version is great, it's easy to make excuses.

All this, of course, doesn't give one much hope for the future...but we'll always have Paris.

EDIT: Also, it's a bit too glib to say that the current problem is that Disney is "all about money". While this is surely true, it implies that what's really necessary is a lot more money.

The source of the theming problem doesn't have anything to do with cash. It doesn't take money to realize the Monsters don't belong in Tomorrowland and that there's an entire half of a park named "Future World" that doesn't have anything to do with the future.

It was always about the money, but from the standpoint that if you create a superior product, it will sell very well. The World of Disney show was really just a giant advertisement for Disneyland, but instead of a crass infomercial, Walt did incredibly interesting things, like lay the foundation for NASA and basically invent the nature documentary.

Of course it was all to make money. Without money, Walt couldn't move on to the next thing (and, frankly, he was done with theme parks and was looking to move on to fixing cities and ultimately civilization itself). But there was a respect for the audience.

Good ideas are free, Disney just doesn't care about them any more, and they aren't going to care as long as the audience has low expectations.

Frankly, it doesn't make any sense for them to care if they keep making money. Thinking is hard, throwing cartoon properties at projects is easy, and if the people keep unquestioningly lapping it up, where is the motivation to do better?

Walt took pride in his work and gave us things we didn't even know we wanted. And while that made him a rich man, there's obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

[subsonic]

Times change, and so does the management behind the scenes of Disney. That wilingness to preserve Disney's visions just isn't there anymore. Its replaced with business, commercialism, and the desire to make that extra buck. Walt Disney didn't grow up in the kind of world we are living in today, otherwise, his dreams for a theme park may not have even been met.

The whole "Times Change" mentality is exactly what Disney is banking on. Schnemo worded something different which really hit a point. We say, "Disney wants to make money" which, really, has always been true, but what Schnemo said was "Disney wants to make A LOT of money" and I'll tack on "RIGHT NOW". ...

Walt took pride in his work and gave us things we didn't even know we wanted. And while that made him a rich man, there's obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

... and this is where the difference lies with Walt. Do you really think Walt would have just said, "Times change" and went with the status to make a quick buck? A man who always exceed exceeded our expectations? A true visionary to give us what we need even though we didn't know we needed it? I don't think it would have said, "Times change"

Sub, I think I have to disagree with you on Disney going away from the theme. They are sticking to the theme, but you don't realize it. For tomorrowland, Disney has incorporated these new interactive attractions that years ago many thought would never exist.
...
It is another interactive ride system that when you think about it, is quite complex.
...
It is a bit of a stretch, but these new ride systems are EXTREMELY complex.

Woah, I think disbeamer covered my feeling on this. Technology does NOT equal theme. The technology, as rdeacon says, "should be transparent". It should be part of the theme to immerse us into new worlds. Indiana Jones ride is a good example. That's a highly technical ride but you don't think about it while on it. Based on Len90's view, opening in 1967 POTC should have been built in Tomorrowland. With all the used of animatroics it was really technical. Hmm, I completely disagree here.

In a nutshell, do not overlook the scientific, society, value, goal, meaning of the Sea based on the fact that it is ''sponsored'' by nemo

Here's the rub, all of those aspects ARE overlooked now because of Nemo. Sure, you know to look for them because you rememebr what one was and have been diving there. Do you think people visiting today think about how the Seas were made? I remember going on as a child and thinking the preshow was not only neat to watch but it made me think. I learned. I had a greater appreciation for the Seas. The Nemo thing is the quick buck. Why couldn't we "Follow Mr. Joe Diver through the ride as he guided us though different aspects of the sea only to be caught in the EAC and we zoom through some underwater adventure"?

Good ideas are free, Disney just doesn't care about them any more, and they aren't going to care as long as the audience has low expectations.

Frankly, it doesn't make any sense for them to care if they keep making money. Thinking is hard, throwing cartoon properties at projects is easy, and if the people keep unquestioningly lapping it up, where is the motivation to do better?

Walt took pride in his work and gave us things we didn't even know we wanted. And while that made him a rich man, there's obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

Absolutely right. Disney doesn't need to exceed our expectations anymore. People will accept that "times change" and not care about having our expectations exceeded. 10 to 20 years from now, if Disney carries on this like, I'll be right there to give everybody an "I told you so".

Here's some reading for everybody:
Kevin Yee's Declining by degrees
Epcot Central
Reimagineering

Perhaps these might put things into more of a perspective for you all