Deacon on Disney - Inform or Entertain

[Captain Schnemo]

That reminds me of this Oscar-winning movie.

The more time passes, the more I realize the extent of Walt's genius.

[Captain Schnemo]

I just posted this on the Off Topic forum, but I imagine a lot of you don't read that one, so I'm also posting it here.

Look who's building EPCOT now.

This is the sort of thing I would have expected Disney to be up to by now. Instead they're moving backwards.

Anyway, be sure to check out the video. It's all very, very familiar. We saw this 42 years ago!

For those of you who can't figure out why people like me complain about Disney as it is currently, watch the Disney video and you'll see why I'm hardly impressed with what Disney's been up to recently. And you'll also get a taste of what the Disney name used to mean.

(Some of you might even be a little surprised to find that "Walt Disney" is more than a brand...he was a genius ambitious enough to fix human society itself, not just create attractions that pretend "oh no, something has gone wrong" or have you looking for missing fish or fowl.)

[Croaker]

I personally think our own world moves too fast for Epcot to capture the imagination and keep it long eno0ugh to entice us. Our own technology leaps before we can master the current. Disney should have companies vie for the opportunity to display their technology and every year Re-bid for that opportunity. the bid shouldn't be picked by what a company is willing to pay Disney...but what Disney thinks is valuable to the culture/times/functionality. perhaps divide the areas into three areas...the Possible: today items that are available to the public Now. the Potential: what companies are working on but yet havn't released to the public...items coming soon! and last....the Dream: What we would like to see... teleportation devices, personal Jet Car's, inexpensive fuels that don't cripple our food supply, politicians that truly care,a future without infomercials, good cell phone reception, Disney Park expantion and upkeep.

[RREng77]

I personally think our own world moves too fast for Epcot to capture the imagination and keep it long eno0ugh to entice us. Our own technology leaps before we can master the current. Disney should have companies vie for the opportunity to display their technology and every year Re-bid for that opportunity. the bid shouldn't be picked by what a company is willing to pay Disney

I couldn't agree more!

perhaps divide the areas into three areas...the Possible: today items that are available to the public Now. the Potential: what companies are working on but yet havn't released to the public...items coming soon! and last....the Dream: What we would like to see... teleportation devices, personal Jet Car's, inexpensive fuels that don't cripple our food supply, politicians that truly care,a future without infomercials, good cell phone reception, Disney Park expantion and upkeep.

Good ideas - I'd like to see all those things, too. I'm just not sure that "politicians that really care" exist. Could be a long time before that exhibit could be filled...

[Captain Schnemo]

Not to sound like a broken record (except to sound exactly like a broken record), but...

I personally think our own world moves too fast for Epcot to capture the imagination and keep it long eno0ugh to entice us.

I couldn't agree more!

I couldn't disagree more. Any attraction that would be outdated in a few years is an attraction that simply isn't looking far enough ahead.

I really dislike the idea of paying any attention to commercially available products (ie, not interesting, not worth paying thousands of dollars and traveling half way around the world to see, obsolete before the attraction is even open, etc.) or much attention to things just around the corner (ie, the attraction is juuust about obsolete).

I wouldn't mind smallish areas set aside for this kind of thing, but wasting all that space in Innoventions for crap I already have is just not Disney quality.

A Chevy Volt would be cool and all, but I saw the EV1 there ages ago, so I'm really not going to be all that impressed with an electric car. Even one that looks that badass. (Huh, Googling around, it looks like Epcot might actually display a Volt. Hmph.)

Anyway, the point is...think big or don't waste our time. At the end of the World of Motion, there was a cool vehicle (the Lean Machine) that got 100mpg, but clearly was a compromise in terms of comfort, speed, and power. Today I've got a boring sedan in my driveway that gets over 50mpg. I don't have any of the stuff from Horizons yet.

In short, impress us or get the hell off the stage!

What really kills me is that people's expectations have been lowered to the point that they think Disney doesn't have the capacity to astonish us any more. Years of Eisner have beaten the hope out of the audience...and I think that was the plan all along.

[WVParkfan]

Any attraction that would be outdated in a few years is an attraction that simply isn't looking far enough ahead.

And yet, there are SO many on this forum (including yourself) that talk about the "classics" like the original Tiki Room and the Jungle Cruise. Those have been outdated since 1972.

While I agree that more can/ should be done, I disagree that the vision is wrong. Walt changed his vision several times throughout his life. His one constant, though, was quality. And I believe that todays WDW still serves up the highest quality of any theme park in the world.

[subsonic]

What really kills me is that people's expectations have been lowered to the point that they think Disney doesn't have the capacity to astonish us any more. Years of Eisner have beaten the hope out of the audience...and I think that was the plan all along.

I agree with this. I think Disney over the past decade has finally succeeded in coming out with enough "barely meeting our expectations" that a lot of people are now dumbed down to what Disney USED to do. I'll expand on that below in response to WVParkfan

And yet, there are SO many on this forum (including yourself) that talk about the "classics" like the original Tiki Room and the Jungle Cruise. Those have been outdated since 1972.

There's s difference here. They aren't outdated. They weren't designed to represent what can be done, they were designed to be timeless. Now, sure, I think they need to be "upgraded" which to me doesn't mean changed but enhanced. Imagine if Disney figured out a way to make the birds in the Tiki room look much more realistic and perhaps give them the appearance to fly. If Tiki was made to look super real with new effects and such, I'd be happy to revisit Tiki more often. Sorry, got a little off topic. Would you consider POTC and HM outdated? I certainly wouldn't. Again those aren't supposed to represent what is possible.

While I agree that more can/ should be done, I disagree that the vision is wrong. Walt changed his vision several times throughout his life. His one constant, though, was quality. And I believe that todays WDW still serves up the highest quality of any theme park in the world.

You need to look at a few Kevin Yee's "Declining by Degrees" articles. Disney has, for a while now, gone with quantity not quality. On top of that, there's a difference between changing visions and being a visionary. Yes, Walt changed what his vision was but he never stopped being a visionary and EXCEEDING people's expectations.

And, a lot of attractions at EPCOT stood several years with out becoming "out of date". I completely agree that if Disney still had visionaries (and believed it takes money to make money) that attractions could be made to look far into future and be popular for quite a few years. Sure, Horizons might have been getting a little old but, God, I loved that ride as a child. I remember wanting that kind of future SO bad. I think they should have updated it not removed it.

Personally, I think POTC at DLR is the best example of what Disney has done (mostly) right and goes along the lines of what I've been saying for the past several years. They enhanced the attraction. Added amazing effects and new, very real looking, animatronics. (I say mostly above because I don't think it needed to be based on Jack Sparrow) Oh, wait, they also did this on HM which I thought was a good enhancement as well.

Really, I think what happened is that Disney got VERY money hungry and whined that EPCOT needed to be updated regulary.

[Captain Schnemo]

And yet, there are SO many on this forum (including yourself) that talk about the "classics" like the original Tiki Room and the Jungle Cruise. Those have been outdated since 1972.

I agree with sub's comments above, but I think the even more important thing is that we are talking about Future World!

Your reaction is in part a result of this lowering of expectations I mentioned. EPCOT was designed to be a different kind of park, and to give you a different kind of experience. They've been chiseling away at this concept for years, to the point that they can now put a Fantasyland attraction right in the middle of Future World and people are happy with it. They're turning the four parks into a giant slush of generic "Disney". And as each generation grows up with this version of Disney, they're going to be easier and easier to please.

Really, I think what happened is that Disney got VERY money hungry and whined that EPCOT needed to be updated regulary.

In many ways this is a self-inflicted problem. Instead of putting a little thought in at the beginning (which is cheap), they've spent lots of money to replace attractions with things that are outdated as soon as they open.

So, now, they've completely abandoned theme and put in a Fantasyland attraction, because those have staying power. It's a ridiculous idea, but they have actually tricked their customers into thinking it's a smart move.

You have to give that Eisner credit. He was an extremely efficient dreamsnuffer.

[subsonic]

They're turning the four parks into a giant slush of generic "Disney". And as each generation grows up with this version of Disney, they're going to be easier and easier to please.

This is the part that really scares me. As each generation grows up, they don't realize what Disney used to be and how it far exceeded our expectations.

Or...

Could it just be that for these newcomers, what Disney has now still exceeds their expectations and we just don't notice it? I always hate that question and I think about it a lot.

One thing is for sure, Disney has forgotten the "Theme" in Theme park.

[Captain Schnemo]

Could it just be that for these newcomers, what Disney has now still exceeds their expectations and we just don't notice it?

I think that is definitely true. Most of the hardcore apologists are either relatively young or those who didn't visit Disney until later in life.

WDW especially is so huge and overwhelming that it seems insane to newcomers that people are complaining about how it should be better. But most of these people don't know their Walt (or only know Revisionist "Disneyland will never be completed." Walt) and they certainly don't appreciate all the incredible thought and effort that went into the original design of the older parks.

"Disney" doesn't mean the same thing it once did, and it only gets further from the original meaning each year. Now all people ask of Disney is that they be entertained in some way, and if the quality is only slightly better or on par with other stuff they've seen, that's just fine because they had a good time. There is no expectation of greatness.

The company no longer aspires to greatness either, so if the polling data says people thought the singing fish were cute, that's good enough for them.

People just don't seem to understand the previous greatness, and if they never experienced it, there's no way in the world to explain it to them. I accept that, but it drives me crazy that they aren't actually interested in a better a product. They will defend their right to a mediocre product and resist thinking about even the possibility of a better product.

That's Eisner's great victory.

[Cheshire Cat]

Most of the hardcore apologists are either relatively young or those who didn't visit Disney until later in life.

How do we deal with these people? This is a question I've been ever-trying to find an answer for. You can't jump right into explaining how things used to be better because then they think you're a crazy Disney freak, but you also can't tell them that the nemo attraction they have just ridden is Disney at its best (which they think it is).

Guests are so ignorant nowadays too. Coming off PotC on one visit I heard a family saying, "That was stupid, it was nothing like the movie." What can be done about these people!? It drives me crazy . The new thing that's getting on my nerves is the people who think it's a great idea to add Disney characters to "it's a small world".

The most important thing to restoring Disney to its former glory is to get the casual and one-time visitors really interested in Walt and the original reasonings for things within the park, but how? Right now, most of them don't care and the others think we're crazy.

What can we do?

[Captain Schnemo]

The only way to change things is to change management's opinion, and that seems bloody unlikely. The reason Disney used to be so superlative had nothing to do with the guests. Management simply made sure things were done in a certain way to satisfy their own high standards.

They're currently stuck on appeasing the lowest common denominator because that's the safest and easiest way to make money. There's no stockholder benefit to making something better than the public expects. We'd have to figure out how to make improvements economically appealing to the corporation. I haven't a clue there. And even if I did, I doubt I have the energy.

I mean, obviously if all the customers suddenly decided the product wasn't worth it, they'd have to change, but that's not going to happen. The change isn't going to come from below.

That's pretty much why I think we're doomed...and why I had hope for Lasseter. I thought he "got it".

But, really, think of it from their perspective. If you were trying to maximize profits and the average guest thinks Monsters in Tomorrowland is a real hoot, why would you even try to make something special?

People like us would sound like lunatics. It'd be like a sculptor getting complaints that his statues tasted terrible. Our complaints are non sequiturs to them.

[Cheshire Cat]

Maybe we should start telling people what lousy times we have going to WDW... hopefully we can spread the word to enough people to affect the attencance .

Seriously though, it seems as if the only way to save Disney is to abandon it.

We can't convince the hardcore Disney fans to stop going anymore than we can convince the frist time visitors that the parks used to be better.
Imagine if MiceAge or MousePlanet suddenly announced that they were going to stop making articles because all the editors agreed to stop visiting the parks. That could get the ball rolling, but it would never happen.

Disney is like an addiction. We've grown to love it for what it once was, and even though it's getting worse and worse we'll still go anyway. However the only way to really make Disney better again is to go cold turkey.

(I hope other people start htting their tipping points with Disney too so I won't be in the minority too long with these drastic propositions .)

"The battle of Eisner is over... the war for Disney has just begun"

[Captain Schnemo]

Seriously though, it seems as if the only way to save Disney is to abandon it.

Well, that's what I've done personally, because I'm just not interested in seeing WDW as it is...but it has certainly not accomplished anything.

I was thinking a bit about this...there are three kinds of Disney customers...us (the "foamers"), the other people online who think everything is going great, and everyone else who doesn't think enough either way about Disney to noodle around online about it.

Disney's money comes from the vast majority who would never bother to type "disney" into Google until they decide to make reservations. These people are satisfied with the experience, but not so wound up about it that they choose to spend their spare time talking and reading about it.

So, there's really no way to reach the average customer online. We can have our intellectual (and sometimes not-so-intellectual) debate online until the cows come home, but it's going to have zero detectable impact. All the blogs, forums, petitions, etc. have done almost nothing, except for some minor victories at DL.

So...what can we really do? At this point, I think the answer is "give up". It's just not going to get better. Why should it?

The longer this goes on, the more things slip away. There's a whole generation that thinks "classic" Disney is Chip n Dale Rescue Rangers.

I'm excited about other projects, like Masdar City, but there's probably never going to be another Walt. All we can do is treasure our memories and suffer the blatherings of the clueless...

...and hope there's another genius out there, somewhere, with the will and brains to succeed in an area that few people really care much about.

[subsonic]

I usually put my two cents in, but this time I have nothing to say. Schnemo said it all.

But, really, think of it from their perspective. If you were trying to maximize profits and the average guest thinks Monsters in Tomorrowland is a real hoot, why would you even try to make something special?

There's not much we can do other than be hopeful. I was hoping that Lasseter was going to be that visionary but Monsters in Tomorrowland, building a Cars land, Toy Story Mainia, and all the other recent Pixar attractions are proof that my hope was shattered. Again, only going with the main stream "what's hot now" philosophy.