Deacon on Disney - Inform or Entertain

[johnnunley]

I think the bottom line is with the numerous management changes at Disney, the old standards and goals are gone, no real history left. Now its fill the parks with as many families as possible, make that almighty buck for the shareholder. Epcot at the beginning was more an educational tool and seemed more slanted toward the older attendees. Now, its just an extension of all the rest of the parks in my mind.

John

[Captain Schnemo]

Captain, I think you have done a really serious thinking about this and certainly have inspired me to think more about what could possibly be, with a little bit of stepping out of my comfort zone.

I'm glad to hear that! Most people don't think very much about why they love things. If you ask them, they'll probably even tell you they want changes that they don't actually want.

A good example is any television show based on romantic tension (Moonlighting being the classic example for my generation, but I'm sure there are both older and more recent examples). People were crying out for Dave and Maddy to get together, which is just silly, because their sparring was the major appeal of the show.

So, finally, the show's producers gave in, and it immediately jumped the shark. It's like when the Coyote finally caught the Roadrunner...what now, smart guy?

I don't think Disney takes that kind of thing into account when they do their market research.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be an imagineer there days?

I really wonder about that. The new breed of Imagineers don't seem to be the jack-of-all-trades of the first generation. If you went to school for mechanical engineering, for example, you might be able to design and build an awesome robot, but maybe not come up with the best story behind it (particularly given college curricula these days, but that's another rant).

Additionally, remember that Disney hired futurists and thinkers (like Ray Bradbury) when they designed EPCOT. I think those guys are more likely to come up with the big ideas, and they're also less likely to feel constrained by ideas of what is technologically possible.

Walt was always coming up with stuff the Imagineers told him wouldn't work and he'd say "Great, have a design on my desk by Monday".

[lebeau]

I'm glad to hear that! Most people don't think very much about why they love things. If you ask them, they'll probably even tell you they want changes that they don't actually want.

A good example is any television show based on romantic tension (Moonlighting being the classic example for my generation, but I'm sure there are both older and more recent examples). People were crying out for Dave and Maddy to get together, which is just silly, because their sparring was the major appeal of the show.

So, finally, the show's producers gave in, and it immediately jumped the shark. It's like when the Coyote finally caught the Roadrunner...what now, smart guy?

I don't think Disney takes that kind of thing into account when they do their market research.


I really wonder about that. The new breed of Imagineers don't seem to be the jack-of-all-trades of the first generation. If you went to school for mechanical engineering, for example, you might be able to design and build an awesome robot, but maybe not come up with the best story behind it (particularly given college curricula these days, but that's another rant).

Additionally, remember that Disney hired futurists and thinkers (like Ray Bradbury) when they designed EPCOT. I think those guys are more likely to come up with the big ideas, and they're also less likely to feel constrained by ideas of what is technologically possible.

Walt was always coming up with stuff the Imagineers told him wouldn't work and he'd say "Great, have a design on my desk by Monday".

Man, Moonlighting positively broke my heart all those years ago. It was my favorite show and then... wth? It still had some good episodes left in it. But it would never be the same.

I totally agree about Disney needing to involve more futurists in Epcot. It was guys like Ray Bradbury who gave the original Epcot center its unique feel. Now, we still get some good attractions. But they feel like regular theme park attractions more than glimpses into the future.

Actually, it's a lot like what happened with Moonlighting in a way.

[alsirrap]

Even though I agree with your sentiments about the old shows and miss many of them. Some of the updates are needed. I miss the old Imagination Pavillion. When it first opened, I played in the room with the lights on the floor which made different musical sounds with my sister. When we finished, we realized that we had been in there for 3 hours. And, then there were the other things to do in there. The blue screen skits that you could participate in. But, even classics do get old and have to make room for new classics that a new generation can relate to. Walt Disney said once that he would rather entertain and then educate rather than the reverse.

I rode the old Universe of Energy ride many times since it's opening, but mostly for the dinosaurs part. The movie, after my first viewing basically was a great time to rest my eyes. I do like Ellen, though not one of my favorite performers. Bill Nye the science guy is not as famous as he once was, but together, I think they do an excellent job keeping me awake with an entertaining and educational show.

So, though my nostalgia for the old rides and shows strikes me at the heart when something I like so much dissappears, I hope that I remember that enjoying the new isn't so difficult when viewing it with the children who see it for the first time, the way I did the old shows. Quite frankly, I'm not one who remembers the Main Street Electrical Parade with any fondness, the way many people do. When Spectromagic Parade was replaced for a year with the old MSEP and I felt angry about it. Spectromagic is my favorite Disney Parade of all times and I would be a bit depressed if it was retired.

The reason I felt inspired to respond to your editorial is that I've heard so many Disney fans, especially on the different podcast, lamenting the demised of their childhood favorites and I can't helped but feel that these people are now reaching middle age and feel that what they knew in their younger years can never be replaced with anything better. EPCOT, though thought of a THE EDUCATIONAL park of all WDW, is still, by Disney standards meant to be entertaining first. I don't feel or think that EPCOT is losing any of the Magic that it had in the beginning. Space Ship earth has been refurbrished, rehabbed, and redone in segments many times. American Adventure has had the same treatment in smaller ways and fewer times, but still has that amazing wonder about it.

You have some points about the attitude of the public and our resistance to learning that can't be denied. But, I don't feel that Disney or EPCOT truly reflect your criticisms. Even the most self acclaim Disney geeks say that they avoid Innovations. For most who visit WDW,it's the entertainment factor that attracts them. The World Showcase provides a great deal about the world within entertainment frameworks. What we learn while being entertained is what we remember the longest. I lament the lost of my old favorites. However, the new in the parks will be the classics that 25 years, we'll hear the aging adults then cry out with their lamentations of how could Disney replace the "greats" that they knew from childhood.

I can't believe that I've ranted on so much about this, but I've noticed that even the most radical and liberal of us, get more conservative as we pile up more and more years of experience and we can't help but think that older was better. I can't believe that teenagers of today feel the same way about their music today that I felt about music in my teenage days. And, I remember adults saying the same about us when I was a teen.

EPCOT it seems to me tries to develop and mature and change by staying young. If it just kept what we liked as a child, it would get old and tired. I'm not sure that there was a core element of what EPCOT or any of the parks must be. Such things are experiments and discovery. After all, it's just entertainment and meant to be fun.

[lebeau]

I don't think anyone is advocating leaving Epcot as it was. Epcot was negelcted for a long time. It felt like the future as envision in the 80s. And a run-down version of that future at that!

Of course Disney needs to keep Epcot fresh. It should get more updates than any other park in order to stay ahead of the times. But those updates should be done with the same "eye towards the future" as the old attractions.

Disney just isn't aiming as high as they used to. It's more obvious at Epcot than it is anywhere else because the original Epcot was so ambitious to begin with.

[alsirrap]

Yes, I can appreciate that. But, I don't think even from the beginning anything really represented the future in EPCOT with the exception of Communicore and Horizons. The Universe of Energy, even World of Motion (with the exception of the supposedly cars of the future in the lobby as you left), didn't have anything futuristic in it. Under the Seas again, though some reference to undersea labs in the pre-show film, wasn't really futuristic.

I remember the old Communicore started out with new inventions and ideas that were supposed to be what we would be able to have in our homes in 4 to 5 years and with small differences in the time frames, most of those things were in our homes, within 10 years.

I remember viewing a satalite screen on TVs that provided television station listings and the capability of scheduling viewing and recording for that program. Also, many different home appliances for cooking and cleaning and funiture, all things that became available within closer to 10 years rather than five for the majority of us. They were the first to have the virtural reality helmets for entertainment in Communicore where groups, usually children would wear the helmets and control what they saw in 360 degrees. (although that may have been Innoventions in the early 90s, I'm not sure about that.) That's what I remember futuristic about EPCOT through the 80s and early 90s. After one viewing, most people tended to avoid Communicore the way is often true now of Innoventions. Though I have to admit that I enjoyed both. Other than that I can't remember then anything more than that being futuristic.

You like everyone else, love the park and hope for something that makes it stand above the ordinary. I do too, but I have to admit, with exception to their inability to update the Imagination Institute to the quality of entertainment and inspiring imagination to the quality of the original, and the equal ability to replace Horizons with something as loved as the original, (I read that lack of sponcership for such an expensive attraction and not attendance was the behind that closing), I enjoy EPCOT today equally and in some instances more than in the last 2 decades. The thrill ride shows do seem to please us and at the same time upset us with the fear that that is the future of EPCOT for attendance and profit reasons. It could happen, but I have faith that Disney isn't likely to go that far. The largest part of the park is World Showcase and that isn't likely to be affected by that. (watch them change every show there to a thrill ride tomorrow and show me to be the fool of a Disney prophet, LOL!)

My feelings and thoughts about all this doesn't negate your and everyone else's cares about the park. Just the fact that you expressed them prove how valid they are and I'm sure Disney listens to them. They do seemed to care a lot about listening and providing means to satisfy, of course, that's why the 2 thrill rides are there.

For 2 decades, I would shake my head when parents would say, "we didn't stay in EPCOT because there was nothing for the kids". I'd say, "did you go into the pavillion with Body Wars and the plays they had for the kids and all the others things that would keep your kids entertained in there for a full day alone?" They would say they didn't know anything about that. And of course the old Imagination Pavillion had as much. I guess they needed some weenies to guide the parents for the kids.

Well, I've been too long winded and then some. Sorry! I guess I've read so much about EPCOT that all this sprang out of "my heart" about the park. I know that we're kindred spirits in the "love" of Disney and the parks.

[rmorton50]

Everyone makes such good arguments here! I read each one and think, "right on." And everyone has a little different point of view. I still enjoy EPCOT and go there at least two days of every trip. I've taken my adult children and grandchildren there and everyone found something exciting to do. I guess we all want Disney to keep thinking big, and out-of-the-ordinary. Just like they always have.
My wife and I were walking this afternoon and began planning our next trip with all three generations in 2009. We'll be going to EPCOT again for sure. I miss some of my old favorites, but look forward to seeing the refurbed Spaceship Earth. Thank goodness we have Subsonic so we can still enjoy a taste of some of the old, as well as the new. I just heard "Finding Nemo, the Musical," and can't wait to see that with my grandkids.
Thanks, everyone.

[Captain Schnemo]

...I've heard so many Disney fans ... lamenting the demised of their childhood favorites and I can't helped but feel that these people are now reaching middle age and feel that what they knew in their younger years can never be replaced with anything better.

The problems we see with Epcot aren't based on nostalgia, it's about content and intent. None of us oppose change. In fact, we are clamoring for it.

After all, it's just entertainment and meant to be fun.

Talk like this wounds my soul. Throwing rocks at bottles is fun. Epcot is supposed to be inspirational.

...I don't think even from the beginning anything really represented the future in EPCOT with the exception of Communicore and Horizons.

Argh. What about the finale of World of Motion, the new technologies in The Land, the entire pavilion of The Living Seas (there are still no undersea labs like that 20 years later), Body Wars, touch screen technology in Imagination, etc.?

There was a certain amount of history, but the attractions started with history, moved on to the present, then speculated about the future. They tried to give us the perspective to understand progress and technology, in the way the Carousel did, although it's become apparent that many people missed the fundamental message there.

I remember the old Communicore started out with new inventions and ideas that were supposed to be what we would be able to have in our homes in 4 to 5 years and with small differences in the time frames, most of those things were in our homes, within 10 years.

That was exactly the point. Innoventions now shows you stuff you already have. Obviously updates were necessary but instead of giving us more futuristic stuff, they went backwards.

It's not an issue of whether or not things simply changed, but what they changed into.

On top of all the things on display, actual futuristic technology was in use in the park, like the information kiosks that were many people's first experience with a GUI and the videophones you could use to make restaurant reservations at the end of Spaceship Earth. Even the solar panels on top of the Universe of Energy, as far as I know, have not been updated to reflect 25 years of technological advances.

...I'm sure Disney listens to [your thoughts].

What evidence do you have to support this? Certainly, as you noted, they have responded to the call to dumb down the park, but have you seen any evidence of a response to the call for the inspirational?

[lebeau]

In the old Epcot, there was more futuristic technology than there is in modern Epcot. But that's not really what I am referring to when I say that the old Epcot had an eye on the future.

The old Epcot truly existed to inspire you. When I came away from my first visit to the Living Seas, I was filled with the possibilities of colonizing the ocean floor. I remember hearing the word "Imagineer" for the first time in the original Imagination Pavillion and being intrigued.

There's still a lot in Epcot that can inspire you. The World Showcase is pretty much unchanged. But the place feels more like a theme park than it used to.

Test Track, in my opinion, is the poster child for modern Epcot. I understand that the ride technology is highly advanced. But the experience is hardly inspirational. It's a car ride, a look inside a fake plant and a commercial for GM. I enjoy the fast ride (when the line isn't too long) but I don't come away from the ride thinking about the accomplishments of man and our future potential.

Pretty much everything in the original Epcot got my mind racing instead of a car.

[alsirrap]

I'm sure that voices like yours will be heard and will help guide the direction of what is wanted and needed in EPCOT, because there is such a diversity of interest that the park needs to satisfy besides what they offer now. There was a need and desire for what has been put into the park of late, and there are others like you who say, okay that need is satisfied and it's time to respond to the die hard fans who have love the park from the beginning.

I like what means so much to you, also. I hope that you and all with similar tastes, and interest are heard, not only for you, but also for the rest of us. I do like what is there and have no complaints about it, myself, however, all the things you would like for the park will only raise the level and quality. Believe me, I do not and did not pass up those parts of the park that you mentioned. And, if they do more of the same and bring back those elements on a greater scale, I may be the stranger standing next to you, in awe, enjoying it every bit as much.

Frankly, I think these things will happen, though probably not as fast as we might like. I have seen Disney respond to fans in the past and in the very near past. Such as the EPCOT 25th celebration, which they hadn't planned before the fans outcry. There are too many people who agree with you for them to ignore.

[Captain Schnemo]

I'm sure that voices like yours will be heard and will help guide the direction of what is wanted and needed in EPCOT...

I still have seen no evidence of this. If these issues had only just been raised when rdeacon made his initial post, I might join you in cautious optimism, but people have been making these points for over a decade now. There are entire websites devoted to this specific issue, and the only time there's been any sort of official Disney recognition of these ideas, they've treated us with complete disdain and called us names.

Disney is extremely hostile towards people like us.

Such as the EPCOT 25th celebration, which they hadn't planned before the fans outcry.

True, that was a nice gesture, but it was embarrassingly small-time and had no lasting impact on the park.

[DisBeamer]

the only time there's been any sort of official Disney recognition of these ideas, they've treated us with complete disdain and called us names.

What was it we are again? Frothers? Foamers? It was something in that genre I'd heard was the 'in' term when company folks describe those of our ilk. Something that conjures up ocean flotsam.

Such as the EPCOT 25th celebration, which they hadn't planned before the fans outcry.

I have a hard time really praising them for that. I mean, it is nice that they decided to do something based on fan demand, but it sort of seemed more like they figured they had to do something because it'd look really bad if fans organized something the company should be doing itself, imo. I'm not sure I'd say it was a sign of them listening to the fans as much as them trying to save face. Buuuut then I'm a cynic.

[BuDz211]

...imagine a world where no one uses fuel that damages the environment, where electricity and clean water are free for everyone, where urban landscapes become a functional part of the ecosystem, where landfills and smokestacks are a thing of the past...

I think even this would have been limited thinking for the old Epcot Center. More visionary thinking would be technologies such as terra farming where we could change the atmosphere to anything we want and weather control, which the chinese are experimenting on.

I think Epcot has changed with the focus of their attendees. How is "Living Seas with Nemo" educational? Epcot is turning into Magic Kingdom. Most want entertainment than intellectualism nowadays. Could you imagine "The Andromeda Strain" making more money if it was released today than "Armageddon?" I think terms such as "Brangelina" could explain it better than I ever could.

[Captain Schnemo]

More visionary thinking would be technologies such as terra farming where we could change the atmosphere to anything we want and weather control, which the chinese are experimenting on.

I think those ideas were more popular in the 50s when we thought domed cities were a cool idea. (Well, OK, they are still a cool idea, but probably not a smart one.)

I think the more we realize that mucking with nature has unintended consequences, the more likely we are to try and integrate (rather than exclude) nature into our urban areas.

In a simple sense, this could mean rooftop parks and plantings, but cooler uses of tech could involve embedding algae into our construction materials to sequester carbon, regulate building temperature, clean the air, and generate power.

[RREng77]

I think the more we realize that mucking with nature has unintended consequences, the more likely we are to try and integrate (rather than exclude) nature into our urban areas.

I agree, but the tourism industry seems to be driving us away from that: we need to live at "home" and travel significant distances to get to "nature."

I'd like to think that one day, living in a "city" wouldn't necessarily preclude me from being among "nature" when first exiting my door. These are precisely the types of ideas I'd expect to see presented at Epcot.