Deacon on Disney - Inform or Entertain

[miceman]

Sure, Test Track is FUN, but in its own way, so was the 20 minute World of Motion.

I do miss that on some of the new rides. The ability to just sit, relax and let the scenary go by. Still, the look on my kids face when we hit the outsdie loop on Test Track is priceless.

One can only hope for more of both kinds of attractions in the future.

[YZFDonor]

The whole concept of Horizons - if it were still standing - would be so irrelevant now that we're IN the 21st century and the "future" in that ride isn't even close to coming to pass.

We are 8 (or 9) years into the 21st Century... Not much happened in the 20th Century until the last 100 years or so (maybe 150). I suspect we have GREAT things to come but I have had this conversation with some friends....

WHAT is left to discover/invent? Maybe I am not terribly insightful or imaginative but other than fast/bigger/better of what we have, what's left??? Space flight? We already do it, albeit slowly. I dunno, I just can't think of anything left to invent. Everything I can think of is just a combination of stuff we already have or a better widget.

[js3901]

The whole concept of Horizons - if it were still standing - would be so irrelevant now that we're IN the 21st century and the "future" in that ride isn't even close to coming to pass.

We are 8 (or 9) years into the 21st Century... Not much happened in the 20th Century until the last 100 years or so (maybe 150). I suspect we have GREAT things to come but I have had this conversation with some friends....

WHAT is left to discover/invent? Maybe I am not terribly insightful or imaginative but other than fast/bigger/better of what we have, what's left??? Space flight? We already do it, albeit slowly. I dunno, I just can't think of anything left to invent. Everything I can think of is just a combination of stuff we already have or a better widget.

ok, to your first point, the 20th Century was exactly 100 years old - hence the word Century. and the large advances started about 30 - 40 years into it, especially moreso in the last 20 years or so.

second, I feel there are plenty of advances left, plenty of gadgets and gizmos to create/invent or discoveries to be made. No one has landed on the moon since the mid-seventies, we've only landed a couple of small remote cameras on Mars, or sent a couple of satellites out to take pictures of some of the other planets. How about setting up labs/stations on the moon or Mars? How about making Oil a renewable resource which is cleaner burning? what about those medical break-throughs that have been happening - how can we improve them and make people live longer then ever?

Just because one cannot think of it, doesn;t mean it cannot be done by another. and who said a combination of things we already have isn;t enough to spark the imagination...? the future is yet to be written.

[Captain Schnemo]

I still get chill bumps on Spaceship Earth. And I'm no less awed simply walking around the park itself, with all its interesting architectures and futurist artifacts.

It's not an accident that when you think of the remaining inspirational aspects of Epcot, you think of the remnants of Epcot '82.

In a sense, Epcot as it was in 1982 has ceased to exist merely because reality caught up with fantasy.

I don't agree at all. Our "space station" is a creaky mobile home, our submarines are cramped and unpleasant, our agriculture is wasteful and damaging, we're still burning dead things for fuel, humanity is still besieged with war and genocide...the hopeful world of Horizons isn't reality, it's still fantasy. It's also still one potential future.

And I think that people aren't as "awed" with the future (or, "abstract future") as they used to be.

Again, I cannot disagree more strongly. If Epcot were to actually provide us with an inspirational and thoughtful vision of the future, we would be awed. You can't create a vision of the future, sit on it for 25 years, then say "Well, that didn't work," because it's no longer cutting edge. Epcot needs to evolve, but that doesn't mean throwing in the towel.

Epcot no longer impresses us because it's no longer trying to do what it set out to do.

Remember that EPCOT was unveiled the same year as Blade Runner, a film which would define the dystopian perception of the future for years to come. From the beginning, science fiction has always featured both optimistic and pessimistic visions of the future.

Walt grew up influenced by HG Wells and Jules Verne, but he didn't focus on the negativity. In the same way he created Disneyland as a reaction to dreary and unpleasant amusement parks, he created optimistic visions of the future to counter fears of an endless Cold War or, worse, an era of atomic devastation, both of which were very real fears at the time.

Perhaps one issue several of you are already touching on is the fact that technology is all around us every day. In the mid-80s, visitors to WDW had never seen most of the technologies represented there.

I don't buy this line of reasoning for a second. Yes, if all Epcot wants to show us is, for example, computers with manual input devices and monitors, then, yes, big deal. Faster computers with faster Internet connections and better graphics aren't going to impress anyone.

But Epcot was never about gizmos, it was about whole new ways of thinking of living. The family in Horizons wasn't blown away by space travel. For them it was just like going to the mall. They created a whole new reality.

And even when technology was highlighted, it wasn't constrained by contemporary tech. We still don't have the 3D phones shown in Horizons, but the effect was a simple trick from the 19th Century, used in a new way. Epcot needs to look several generations beyond our current tech to present new ideas, even if we can't even begin to do them for real now.

In short, if Epcot isn't wowing us with new ideas, it's not because we're jaded, it's because they aren't trying.

On the original topic of "informing", that doesn't begin to cover what Epcot was about. You can see this clearly with the Nemofied Seas. Crush has some interesting information about saltwater and whales and such, but that's not what the Living Seas was about. It wasn't just an examination of what exists, it was about the interaction between humanity and all that stuff. Even though the tech that powers Crush is cool, it's really just an uninspiring marine science lecture.

For this reason, I must admit that I was not a huge fan the original Universe of Energy. It didn't attempt to inspire, it merely explained the state of things. That's educational, sure, but it failed to make you feel hopeful about the future. The most inspiring thing about it was the use of actual solar panels, and that was obviously current, not future, tech.

That's not to say that newer version is not infinitely worse, but that's another issue entirely.

...the large advances started about 30 - 40 years into it, especially moreso in the last 20 years or so.

I don't agree with this at all. Significant technological breakthroughs occurred in every decade of the 20th Century, and did so for centuries before that. Progress looks different when you're in the middle of it, but you can't name a time in the last 200 years (at least!) when things were not in constant flux. Just look at the Carousel of Progress!

This is why we need something like Epcot to get us thinking big about what's to come. Forget smaller electronics and more helpful appliances...

...imagine a world where no one uses fuel that damages the environment, where electricity and clean water are free for everyone, where urban landscapes become a functional part of the ecosystem, where landfills and smokestacks are a thing of the past, where societies interact as easily as the guests and cast members of World Showcase, where cancer and AIDS and tuberculosis are minor nuisances, where children everywhere get a strong education and have a firm grasp of the scientific process and logic, where society values teachers and scientists half as much as drunken teenage pop stars, where you could visit Disneyland Mars on Saturday and have popcorn and take pictures at the bottom of the Marianas Trench on Sunday...

Would any of us be bored to see this reality portrayed? These aren't the kind of things you've seen in a Sharper Image catalog, these are real future possibilities that can and should be presented to us by Epcot.

[js3901]

...the large advances started about 30 - 40 years into it, especially moreso in the last 20 years or so.

I don't agree with this at all. Significant technological breakthroughs occurred in every decade of the 20th Century, and did so for centuries before that. Progress looks different when you're in the middle of it, but you can't name a time in the last 200 years (at least!) when things were not in constant flux. Just look at the Carousel of Progress!

I agree that in the last 200 years or so, there have been many changes in the way society has functioned. But, you bring up a good point in COP. Look at scene 1 compared to scene 2 or 3. They went from the late 1800s using blocks of ice in the old-fashioned ice-box, to the mid-1920s and electricity powered refrigerators. from the sounds of the attraction, it took them almost 20 years to progress that far. then another 20 years, and we have television.

I agree with you completely on the future possibilities that Epcot should portray. They used to tell us how it was, and what we could do in our lives to make things better. but, as everyone agrees, Epcot has lost sight of the roots that they laid down. let's just hope that current management gain regain it.

[Captain Schnemo]

They went from the late 1800s using blocks of ice in the old-fashioned ice-box, to the mid-1920s and electricity powered refrigerators. from the sounds of the attraction, it took them almost 20 years to progress that far. then another 20 years, and we have television.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Moving from an icebox to a refrigerator is a huge paradigm shift. A whole industry disappears overnight, individual homes are wired for electricity which requires a massive new infrastructure, etc.

Putting that specific example aside, if you look at only the field of communications in the early 20th Century, you have an explosion of telephone, radio, recorded media, television, animation, and film technologies, most of which we're still using now. If you take any given chunk of that time, I don't see it as moving any slower than today.

As you pointed out in response to YZF, the "what is left to invent?" question is one that has been asked for generations of people who thought that things could hardly get better.

The idea that today's society is somehow immune to surprise or awe doesn't hold up. No one saw the web coming, despite the fact that the Internet had already been around for 20 years. There are things going on right now that are about to take off, that most of us don't know anything about, and they're going to change the world in unpredictable ways.

[lebeau]

Captain Schenmo is dead-on right in this thread. If Disney had kept Epcot current and stayed true to the original mission statement, it would have been a success. Disney, despite what they will occassionally say in interviews, didn't drop the infotainment because people we're responding to it. They went with more traditional attractions because they were easier and less risky.

Epcot is still an interesting place to visit. And it's still a unique experience. But it is less unique and interesting than it used to be. I enjoy visiting the new Epcot, but I'm not awed by it the way I was when I first visited in '88.

Sure, I have changed. Times have changed. But if the park had kept current with the times and maintained its futurism, I have no doubt I would still be aewd by it. I'm no less receptive to a vision of the future than I was then.

Disney just isn't offering a vision of the future the way they used to.

[Lumiere]

If the current trend is possibly veering off the original course of EPCOT (which many of us obviously think it is) what do any of you think they should be creating now?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think it's hard to dazzle us these days. Think about it. When you can sit in your living room looking at a Hi Def screen and watch a space walk above the earth....

[danimal3114u]

If the current trend is possibly veering off the original course of EPCOT (which many of us obviously think it is) what do any of you think they should be creating now?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think it's hard to dazzle us these days. Think about it. When you can sit in your living room looking at a Hi Def screen and watch a space walk above the earth....

I think Captain does a good job of making sense of this issue. The feeling that the "future" is already here and there's no where else to go is also brought up constantly in the Carousel of Progress. Every genertaion at any given moment feels awed by the technology around them. People thought the same thing about having radios in their living room that we do about Hi Def TVs. There are still places to progress and areas where there can be radical changes.

[tmptnr]

Right on. I remember in H.S. when our band took a trip to Disney and everyone voted not to go to EPCOT because they did not want to learn anything on vacation. I can say I was not one of those poeple. Epcot center will always be my favorite park at WDW becasue every time you go there there is a new "somthing" that you can discover. Even though with the re-vamps of rides which are necessary I think they need to re-look into the educational part and re-incorperate it so that the audiance can learn while having fun.

[Captain Schnemo]

...what do any of you think they should be creating now?

They should be showing us potential environments, not just gizmos. Horizons wasn't really about amazing futuristic tech, it was about the culture of the future. How people will live, work, play, interact, travel, etc.

That's something you can't get anywhere else. It's not just an explanation of stuff you can watch on the Discovery Channel or a really cool gadget you can play with at Best Buy.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think it's hard to dazzle us these days. Think about it. When you can sit in your living room looking at a Hi Def screen and watch a space walk above the earth....

The worst thing Disney has done is to lower expectations. It's one thing to watch a spacewalk on television, but quite another to be right in the middle of a simulated space city, moonbase, undersea lab, carbon neutral urban area, etc.

[subsonic]

I haven't been posting as much, but if anybody remember my train of thought on topics like this you will know that I don't have much to say other than to agree with Schnemo. I will reiterate some things though as this is a very tender topic for me. I have been to WDW several times in my life over 2 decades. As a child, I was always fascinated with EPCOT. Horizons was spectacular. All I remember was, "I want to do that, that is so cool" I can't think of a time where I was bored, where I thought I was being "informed", or felt it was outdated. I have since been on Mission:SPACE. Now, while it's a fun attraction, really, I came off it thinking "the launch and slingshot felt really cool" That was it.

I have said time and time again, Disney is losing it's vision, it seems to merely meet our expectations and not exceed them. Disney wouldn't be where it is today if it simply met our expectations. There are so many directions Epcot could go to show us what a future could be like. As part of what Schnemo said

...imagine a world where no one uses fuel that damages the environment, where electricity and clean water are free for everyone, where urban landscapes become a functional part of the ecosystem, where landfills and smokestacks are a thing of the past...

These are just off the top of his head. I for one would love to see stuff like this. It's sad Disney doesn't realize it.

[DisBeamer]

The more I've pondered this thread, the more I'm starting to wonder if one of the biggest disservices Disney ever did to Epcot wasn't letting it get saddled with the 'educational park' moniker. I mean, when you think about it, what all did we learn from the original Epcot attractions (omitting World Showcase from this discussion). Were there a lot of people on World of Motion who were surprised that someone'd discovered the wheel?

I'll grant that UoE, Living Seas and -maybe- the Land were probably taking people to things they hadn't considered before (or maybe not since some forgotten high school class), but for the most part, the attractions were going over a lot of history that was (at least I hope was) common knowledge, even in '82. Even the crown jewel that is/was Spaceship Earth was more about things people already knew about (papyrus, printing press... I suspect most people had heard of these before Walter explained it to them).

Epcot ... or rather EPCOT Center's real power was, I think, in its ability to inspire. This is pretty much the core of the apple for me:

On the original topic of "informing", that doesn't begin to cover what Epcot was about. You can see this clearly with the Nemofied Seas. Crush has some interesting information about saltwater and whales and such, but that's not what the Living Seas was about. It wasn't just an examination of what exists, it was about the interaction between humanity and all that stuff. Even though the tech that powers Crush is cool, it's really just an uninspiring marine science lecture.

For this reason, I must admit that I was not a huge fan the original Universe of Energy. It didn't attempt to inspire, it merely explained the state of things. That's educational, sure, but it failed to make you feel hopeful about the future. The most inspiring thing about it was the use of actual solar panels, and that was obviously current, not future, tech.

I don't think the reason Epcot doesn't instill the same sense of wonder as it once did is because they've stopped trying to teach us stuff. I'm not convinced the principal idea was to ever inform people of facts as much as it was inspire them to consider possibilities. I think the best slogan for the original Epcot was Horizons' "If we can dream it, we can do it!". The problem isn't that people are too lazy or stupid to support attractions that make them think about cities under the sea, or flying cars, or as-yet impossible/impractical energy sources. I don't think the park is really all that more or less informative than it ever was. I think the difference is that Epcot doesn't dream anymore.

[Captain Schnemo]

...Spaceship Earth was more about things people already knew about (papyrus, printing press... I suspect most people had heard of these before Walter explained it to them).

One of the major themes of SSE (and some of the other original attractions) was the journey, designed to give a sense of perspective.

Starting with cavemen with hurty feets and ending with a futuristic cityscape that looked half-Manhattan, half-Tron...they demonstrated that we're always at a single point on that journey, and there's always another scene right around the corner.

As you say, hopefully everyone already knew about most of the stuff they were looking at (although I distinctly remember cringing as a Dad pointed to the pharaoh on SSE and loudly exclaimed, "Look kids, Napoleon!"...I could have cried), but things were presented in such a way as to make you think about where we've been and where we're going.

And, if you didn't want to think, at least the scenes were full of pretty things to look at, sight gags, movement, interesting sounds and effects, etc.

"If we can dream it, we can do it!"

I could have spared you all 10,000 rambling words in this thread by simply quoting that instead!

You should see what my posts look like before I clean up my brain dumps and throw out half of the completely redundant stuff...

[rmorton50]

Captain, I think you have done a really serious thinking about this and certainly have inspired me to think more about what could possibly be, with a little bit of stepping out of my comfort zone. Disney havs always been inspiring to me.

Can you imagine what it must be like to be an imagineer there days? I'll betcha there are thousands of ideas out there that never get past the financial and operations guys who want to be practical businessmen and think of the stockholders first. Perhaps management changes will let some of those out-of-the-world ideas get out of the closet.