Tomorrowland, er um Pixarland

In relation to Disney Parks but not specific to a single resort

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Captain Schnemo
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Oct Sun 28, 2007 8:06 am

yodiwan1 wrote:...when he told me to look up the word future that was a direct shot at me...
I asked you to consider the meaning of the word because you weren't taking it into account. This was after you'd already resorted to namecalling, which I ignored. You can't have a reasonable discussion if one side isn't going to accept the simple definition of words.

Again, there's really no debate here. I don't mind entertaining others' opinions when the topic is subjective, but there's simply no legitimate rationale for the claim that replacing a scientific undersea base which was designed to be a window into one possible near future with singing cartoon fish is in some way an improvement on the Disney-defined theme.

If you like the idea of a cartoon fish and his musical friends better than a futuristic sea base, that's fine, but then you have to accept that you don't really care about the theming of the park. That's also fine, but that's a completely different topic.

The issue at hand is whether or not the Nemo pavilion fits in, and it unquestionably does not.

(I can also rattle off a laundry list of other reasons why the Nemo theme is in fundamental conflict with Epcot's core philosophies, but there are whole web sites devoted to that kind of thing, and we've been through it all before.)

As for the other examples of things in Future World that are not futuristic, I agree with you. Clearly Soarin' and Test Track do not belong in Future World either. Very perceptive of you.

The original Future World attractions did spend some time addressing history for the purpose of giving perspective, but then they turned towards what the near future might bring. It's the primary focus of the land, or at least it's supposed to be.

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Sun 28, 2007 8:37 am

i just wish you thought a little mmore open minded and realize that things change and evolve into different things. The old seas exhibit had very low attendance. They had to do something to spark it back up, and there isn't much you can do with a giant aquarium. Yes, originally EPCOT Center was supposed to be void of characters, but that was also EPCOT Center. We are ina different time, and the majority of people liek them. Unfortunatly, the people that would love to follow the originaly blueprints are not the majority. I for one love the characters there. I feel that the name Disney and seeing characters go hand in hand. So with th new blueprints I do feel that nemo fits in, if you go by the origial, then no it does now...but we are not in the past, we are here today, and looking towards the FUTURE.
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Post by Cheshire Cat » Oct Sun 28, 2007 10:36 am

That said, if Space Mountain gets a Meet the Robinsons, or any kind, of movie overlay, I will weep openly. >_< I actually don't want a 'movie' overlay for TL at all... it was just the design aesthetic from MtR that appealed to me, and gave hope that someone in the company might still be able to think up 'fantastical future stuff' if they put their minds to it.
I agree with you completely on this!! :D I think Disney should take some inspiration from the movie if they redesign Tomorrowland. I loved the design of the buildings and the overall feel of optimism in that future. It reminded me of the original WDW Tomorrowland design. It's becoming clear to me that our percieved vision of the future isn't shiny and mettalic anymore, but rather soft and pastel-like such as MTR.

I'm not saying that should design Tomorrowland around MTR, but rather take some of the design features and give Tomorrowland a warmer more optimistic feeling rather than the soon-to-be-dated neon, metal, comic-book look. the future from MTR was realistic, but far-fetch'd enough so that it didn't interfere with the theme of Future World (the plausible future). Very Tomrrowland-esque.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here, just rambling really... I hope someone is able to grasp the connection I'm trying to make. I guess the design of the future from MTR transcends words and just touches on emotions and feelings. Those emotions being optimism and fun, but still futuristic. After watching that movie I guess, it makes WDW's Tomorrowland seem cold and uninviting... more like Doris's version of the future.

Or maybe I just think it would be cool to have giant bubble machines lining the sides of the buildings in the Tomorrowland Causeway... :P
Last edited by Cheshire Cat on Oct Sun 28, 2007 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Sun 28, 2007 10:41 am

i never saw MTR but i hear what youre saying, and I really hope they leave SM out of the movie theme loop, some rides are meant to say classic.
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Oct Sun 28, 2007 11:19 am

yodiwan1 wrote:...things change and evolve into different things.
I would love for Future World to evolve, given that the 1982 vision of the future wasn't going to seem fresh forever (although I have to say that we still haven't accomplished most of the things seen in Horizons). Disney's plan, however, has been to let attractions decay to a point that almost anything that replaces them is regarded as improvement.

Then the false choice of "Do you want that old broken thing or this shiny new thing?" is posed by their apologists. Those aren't the only two available options.
The old seas exhibit had very low attendance.
That's irrelevant to this issue. They'd probably have even higher attendance if they gave out free beer. And no one's saying it wasn't in need of a change.
They had to do something to spark it back up, and there isn't much you can do with a giant aquarium.
That's nonsense. There is so much fantastic stuff they could have done and still kept the "theme" in "theme park". Nemo only works if you think the point of the attraction is "Oh, look, fish!". Just like Soarin' only works if you think the point is "Oh, look, land!".

The attractions were not simply about the environment, they were about man's interaction with the environment. That's where the excitement lies. They were about where we've been and where we're going. The attitude is built in to Future World. Just look at the architecture.
Unfortunatly, the people that would love to follow the originaly blueprints are not the majority.
We don't know that. Disney hasn't given us the option. They've made a corporate decision to blur the lines between to the parks, to make each less unique. Again the only options weren't just a 20-year-old "futuristic" theme and singing cartoon fish.

Again, you're working backwards from the point of view that because something exists, it needs to be justified. And you're again trying to back off from the original issue.

Also I second the notion that the optimism needs to be brought back to Tomorrowland. Making a cynical future, or looking backwards to the past is easy, but showing us a bold vision of a future that won't suck takes the kind of talent Disney built his reputation on.

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Sun 28, 2007 11:34 am

Quote:
The old seas exhibit had very low attendance.

That's irrelevant to this issue. They'd probably have even higher attendance if they gave out free beer. And no one's saying it wasn't in need of a change.
This is very relevent, it is why they changed it! and it has worked. I has become one of the more popular attractions in the park. Nemo is not only
"Oh, look, fish!".
There is plenty there that educates people on the ocean and how the ocean affects the world. Crush Talk is not about oh look fish, its about teaching people in a highly entertaining, technologically advanced method. Other "rooms" in the pavillion also are used to teach and educate, yes, theres one play area and a gift ship, but there is also a great deal to be learned here, and by learning you can change the future. All knowledge one gains, positive or negative, will be usd at oen point in tat perons life to change something, even if it is the smallest amount of the future. Some people that come here may not have any other chance to se these wonderful species in their home states/countries. How many aquariums are in Montana, or Kansas? People can be inspired by visiting here and become oceanographers or want to get mroe involved with saving our oceans. All of these can change the future.
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Oct Sun 28, 2007 12:00 pm

yodiwan1 wrote:This is very relevent...
It's not at all relevant to the theming, which is the basis of this discussion.
There is plenty there that educates people on the ocean and how the ocean affects the world.
Again, it's not simply about "education", and even if it were, the dark ride, the most prominent new feature, is no more educational than the similarly misplaced "Where's Donald?" ride in Mexico...although I suppose you are educated as to where Nemo and Donald are. The Crush talk is fun, but is about explaining what exists, not how humanity interacts with it or where we're going.

The rest of the stuff you said has no bearing on theming.

Why are you so willing to make these illogical, argumentative backflips to justify Nemo when you have admitted that MILF doesn't fit into Tomorrowland? It's exactly the same principle at work. Is it because you like Nemo more than MILF?

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Sun 28, 2007 12:16 pm

no, it is becasue I do feel i fits, and I am done with this, I am tired of argueing with someone who keeps making closed minded statements...
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Post by rdeacon » Oct Mon 29, 2007 9:07 am

yodiwan....

Schnemo doesn't have closed minded statements, he just strongly feels that Epcot should adhere to its core values.

Schnemo and I have debated the Nemo-ization of the Living Seas as well. If you want to look at the fundamentals Nemo does not fit in future world, but as previously mentioned most of the attractions do not fit.

Future world was meant to function as a permanent worlds fair... and that line has been severely blurred.

So what do we have... basically a park that has gone ( and continues ) to go thru an identity crisis. While world showcase has been a steady theme, future world has not. Not to speak for Scnhnemo, but I think he feels the character-ization is a cop-out ( schnemo is welcome to kick me in the shins and make his own point here :) )

I am more willing to accept Nemo into the living seas, since the future world line has already been shoved aside. I think the Nemo-ization is cute and works to bring in a fresh crowd to once dead pavilion. I am happy they are at least still trying to educate the general public as well. I feel at this point, that as long as pavilion is done well, well themed, and kinda fits into the area its placed in, I am generally happy, and will accept it.

When a ride is severely misplaced, and mediocre (MILF), or less exciting then its predecessor (Stitch), I am generally very disappointed and just tend to skip those rides.

Is that the best attitude to have... I dunno, probably not. I would like to see Disney rise to another level, and my hope is we will start to see that. But that will take time.

In the meantime I will enjoy the parks, skip the mediocre and look to the future.


Rich

ps: I should also note that during our debates in the past (schnemo and I), I haven't seen eye to eye with him. I felt sad that he cannot enjoy parts of the parks and gets distracted by his steadfast opinion on what he feels the parks should be, and that in general he was very negative. While I still feel that way, well not the negative attitude, but that he can't enjoy the parks. I must say I have grown to respect his viewpoints and do understand his passion for the parks is not a negative attitude, but a deep belief that Disney should not stray from the core values it used to create the park.
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Oct Tue 30, 2007 5:29 am

rdeacon wrote:Schnemo doesn't have closed minded statements, he just strongly feels that Epcot should adhere to its core values.
That is certainly true, but that's a matter of taste and not the primary (and very simple) point I was making. I've done that rant many times before.

The thing I'm "closed minded" about in this case is the definition of a word, which is something we all need to be if we're going to communicate.
...a park that has gone ( and continues ) to go thru an identity crisis.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. While I think it's a bad idea for Disney to water down the Future World idea, the truly depressing thing is the way in which it's being done. They're breaking their own rules, and they can't explain why.

There are usually certain rules to an art form, such as the fourth wall or 180 rule in cinema. In this case, Walt himself set up the rules, so appropriate respect should be paid to them in the name of generating a quality product, if nothing else.

This is not to say that an artist can never break the rules, but one must completely understand the rules first and be able to explain why a decision to break them was made. If the artist can't do that, then it's either a mistake or a concession. A mistake means that the artist is either ignorant or not trying very hard ("Nemo's a fish!") and a concession means that the artist knows what's being done is wrong, but doesn't care enough to do it right ("Nemo is profitable!").

If Disney wants to change the purpose of Future World, I would consider that to be a terrible decision, but at least it would give them the opportunity to show that they respect the audience and that they are taking their jobs, the park, and your hard-earned dollars seriously. They could adequately explain why things are as they are, and show that they are both competent and respectful of the audience. Currently, I'm not convinced that they're either of those things.
...the character-ization is a cop-out...
Not so much a cop out, as a move that Disney cannot explain (or at least has not). OK, Disney, you think Nemo works in Future World? Sell me on it!

I know that originally Epcot was character-free because Disney found it important to make Epcot a distinct entity from other Disney parks. This worked very well and (despite the "common knowledge" often repeated on Internet forums) resulted in an extremely profitable as well as satisfying park. So it worked on both an artistic and a financial level, by adhering to a rule set out in the beginning.

Now they've chosen to break the rule...why? If it's a purposeful and thoughtful decision, why don't they have the cojones to take ownership of it? Why continue to call it "Future World" if they really don't want to examine the future any longer?

Is it just because the buildings look a little spacey? Too lazy to come up with a new name? Too embarrassed to own up to how far they've strayed? Or are they banking on the previous popularity, which means a change wasn't really necessary? Have they even noticed that they're off-message?

It's at best sloppy and at worst cynical, but either way it's not the level of quality I'm willing to pay for. It's not the previously advertised product. It's a bait and switch.

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Tue 30, 2007 7:13 am

ok, i need to ask one more thing....besides the fact the the living seas was a futuristic underseas base, and horizons was about looking to the future, what other rides really dealt with the future???
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Post by rdeacon » Oct Tue 30, 2007 7:34 am

I feel they all did, basically....

Lets break them down:
  • CommuniCore - new future innovations

    The Land - future uses of land management, and crop growing techniques.

    Livings Seas we agree was a futuristic sea base with the theme to of understanding the seas and the future exploration of the seas

    Horizons - about looking to the future

    Universe of Energy - explained past present and future energy choices

    World of Motion - past, present and future modes of transportation

    Spaceship Earth - past, present and future means of communication

    Imagination - thinking imagination is timeless.. but it does stretch it a bit.
Wonders of Life was added in 89, so I don't know if we should add it to this part of the debate.

All the original pavilions with the exception of Imagination are characterless and do include future themes.

Funny I really like The Seas with Nemo and friends, but if you get to the core, like Schnemo does, I find that I agree with him and disagree with myself. :D

The seas, even the title dilutes the the core of what Epcot started out as. It appears as if Epcot has gone more towards the now then the future, with the additions of Test Track and the Seas with Nemo. Maybe they should rename it to Now World. :)

Great now I am debating myself...hahahaaa

Which leads to another question. Is Disney allowed to alter a park in a new direction, a new theme?

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Tue 30, 2007 7:55 am

and i feel that living with the land hasnt really coverd that much of the future, when I was in 4th grade i was growing plants hydroponically. They do have a small section about the NASA techniques, but it is a small portion. ALl of the other rides only touched on the future minimally. Both SE and WOM both basically take/took you on a history lesson(which I do love). Even UOE is history, plus what we are doing today with energy, granted what we do today will change the future, but it is still basically today.
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Post by Captain Schnemo » Oct Tue 30, 2007 8:55 am

rdeacon wrote:Imagination - thinking imagination is timeless.. but it does stretch it a bit.
I think it made the case that all technological and cultural advances spring from human imagination. Everything else in the park came from figments. I suppose it could be a bit of stretch, but I thought it humanized things discussed in all the other attractions, some of which were a bit cold.
All the original pavilions with the exception of Imagination are characterless...
It's not characters per se that were absent from Epcot, but existing characters. This was to drive home the point that this was a completely new experience.
Funny I really like The Seas with Nemo and friends...
The dark ride seems pretty cool for Fantasyland. And I suppose I wouldn't be terribly upset with Nemo hosting a Seas attraction in the Animal Kingdom, although I still think it would be better without the movie tie-in.
Is Disney allowed to alter a park in a new direction, a new theme?
I don't know about being "allowed", but everyone will probably have different opinions, based on what they liked about a particular park.

Outside of Future World, I would say they've already significantly modified the Studios' theme. The Tower is basically an admission that the original theme for the park was lame.

Finding out how movies are made is pretty boring. Special effects aren't interesting outside the frame. They're designed to look good in only a limited way. That's why most of the stuff in a Planet Hollywood looks stupid (eg, Imperial Stormtroopers blasters are just painted hunks of wood that look terrible up close). Watching someone add computer effects is even more boring.

The sad thing is that Universal had already figured this out at the time Disney decided to copy them. A studio setting is only interesting if they're creating something you care about, and that wasn't going to happen in Orlando (although they did make a valiant attempt).

Theme park attractions are artificial creations attempting to create an alternate reality for the guests. If you dissect an attraction while you're in the middle of it and point out how this or that effect is done, not only is the "magic" gone, but so is most of the fun. Disney eventually realized this, and abandoned the "meta" nature of the attractions and went back to what they are known for -- creating immersive attractions that aren't self-aware and don't "break character".

As for the "futureness" of other attractions, the point was to show what could (and hopefully would) be done in the near future.

If the energy pavilion focussed on solar and wind, you could complain that those things exist now, but they aren't used at the levels they should be and that would be the point. (There's where having an oil company sponsor your energy show doesn't quite work out.)

In 1982, much of the stuff on display was bleeding edge. World of Motion discussed hybrid and zero emission vehicles long before anyone could buy a Prius (although the sponsorship issue reared its ugly head again...hybrid cars were portrayed as a pipe dream).

In general, agriculture is still behind even Living with the Land's current tech. We still waste petroleum on fertilizer and pour toxins into the land.

Future World was supposed to be a showcase of the possible. It would show off the best that American ingenuity had to offer and at the same time help bring these things into fruition. When car companies were dragging their feet and complaining that they couldn't possibly create an affordable car that got decent mileage, they could show off real world examples that destroyed this myth. They could show people how much better the world could be and how we could achieve these goals, with concrete examples. It would help to put these ideas in the public consciousness, so they didn't seem outlandish and impossible.

That was the plan, anyway. Didn't completely work back then, but there were some pretty cool successes. Those interactive kiosks stationed around the parks were showing off the usefulness of a graphical OS long before people saw Macintoshes or Windows machines or knew what a mouse was. That tech was coming down the line in a few years, but many people saw it first at Epcot. Where's that kind of innovation now?

Innoventions largely shows you stuff that's not only currently available for purchase, but already a generation behind what's currently popular.

I'm hoping they'll do something special with Spaceship Earth, along the lines of the original exit area. Originally, there was a large bank of video phones which you'd use to make restaurant reservations and such. It was a cool display of technology, but also served a purpose by giving guests a useful real world demonstration of the technology. It's a lot harder to believe something's impossible once you've actually done it.

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Post by yodiwan1 » Oct Tue 30, 2007 9:11 am

how was the original theme for mgm lame?? There are millions of people that would disagree there. The movie/tv industry is huge, especially in this country where we are getting more obese by the minute froim sitting and watching everything on the TV.( I ma including movies in this as well) If you don't liek something don't do it, thats it, you don't need to constantly bash things just because you disagree or feel that things ahve changed. Please stop bashing everything you dislike, cause it seems you dislike an awful lot. I almost dont even want to check the boards anymore because everything seems to be a comlaint,and I have even gotten PMs from people expressing the same thing.

I do agree about innoventions being very futuristic in its own right, but I also feel liek I am walking in a giant commercial when I am in there.
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