What would you change back?

In relation to Disney Parks but not specific to a single resort

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Captain Schnemo
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Post by Captain Schnemo » May Thu 17, 2007 1:06 am

I hate the Institute idea, because 1) HISTA sucks and 2) it's too formal for something like the concept of imagination.

The middle pre-Figment version was especially insulting, in that it implied that you are stupid until Disney's machines help you out and then suddenly you're a real thinker.

The original point was that everyone has an imagination and that using it can be fun and benefits all of human civilization. Think outside the box.

The middle version explained that you should stay in the box until a corporate entity tells you it's OK to peek outside it.

I don't have any friggin' idea what assaulting your senses has to do with imagination.

I guess there's such a lack of imagination amongst the Imagineers these days that they don't even know what the words means any more.

("Inconceivable!")

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Post by DisBeamer » May Thu 17, 2007 1:49 am

Hmm. I really don't think the Institute idea is irredeemable. I actually don't even think the ride concept they have in place is irredeemable, I just think they did a craptastic job of implementing it. If you look at the bare-bones concept though (assuming I'm grasping the concept they're after amidst the dreck they created), it's not bad.

Bunch of geeky science types (which I feel comfortable saying because I am one) are trying to study imagination. Their approach is to quantify and measure and be clinical and as such, because imagination is freeform and grey-area and 'wiggly', they just really don't get it.
But there's this thing that keeps flitting around the Institute they've set up (i.e. Figment) and mucking up the works by being spontaneous and disruptive and, well, actually imaginative. And they try to ignore it and contain it because it's unpredictable and non-conformist and it can't be pinned down, etc. And eventually they tweak on the idea that their way of trying to force imagination to conform isn't going to work because, by its nature, it -can't- conform and still exist and everyone goes eureka! (and presumably off the ride and into the gift shop).

I still don't think that approach is a terrible way to 'investigate' imagination, but somewhere along the design path they lost sight of some of the things they did right in the original show. Example - clinging to the 5 senses business rather than just running with the theme of 'inspiration' that went through the original ride ("And what about science?", etc.)

The part of the current ride that I think works 'best' is probably the sight lab and is most along the lines of how I would envision this concept carried out 'correctly', where Figment helps Dr. Idle (can't remember the real character name =) ) to see things differently by messing with his display/experiment.

If they hadn't kinda cheaped out on the ride, there could have been a lot of those kinds of effects where Figment's little sparks of inspiration transformed the scenery around the ride vehicles themselves (preferably without the use of 2d screens..) and really given the concept the treatment it deserved. Off the top of my head, say ... Dr Whatsit pulls the cars into a lab where people are investigating the roots of mystery/scary stories (my favorite part of the original ride) and, by and by, the room around the vehicles turns into a 'dark and stormy night in the woods', complete with scary faces in the trees/branches that appear to grab at you. They could even use a mister to spritz people with water for the rain, since they seem to enjoy misting so much.

I think they was just a lot of wasted potential in that concept, and it's a shame because it seems like Imagineers of all people should be able to come up with something suitably fantastical in a pavilion devoted to imagination. All that said, I'd still change the ride back to its original incarnation in a heartbeat - there was no reason to ever change it. (Hell, the first change eliminated the only really marketable character to come out of Epcot - what were they thinking there?? Perhaps they were involved in a land war in Asia...).

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Post by Captain Schnemo » May Thu 17, 2007 2:37 am

I don't like the idea that the embodiment of imagination is something that clashes with science and is also an entity entirely separate from the audience. It changes the focus from the idea that imagination is something to be celebrated and that letting it run wild has tremendous benefits (like fun and a society not based on hiding from wild animals in caves). And that it resides in all of us.

It also follows the familiar "something has gone wrong" plan of so many new attractions, which is both pessimistic and ineffective on subsequent visits since you already know the gag. In all of these attractions, the entertainment is an "accident", which is horribly cynical. They're telling you that the only reason you had any fun is because the people in charge are incompetent.

Figment shouldn't be a nuisance to anyone and certainly shouldn't be irritating scientists. Figment represents flashes of brilliance such as Einstein's "thought experiments"...he's not supposed to be the Alien in the Encounter, gumming up the works.

As you described, in this case the Institute has questionable motives, is completely wrong about things, and employs and honors morons like Dr. Idle and Rick Moranis.
Their approach is to quantify and measure and be clinical and as such, because imagination is freeform and grey-area and 'wiggly', they just really don't get it.
Perhaps there is something Freudian going on in WDI?
Last edited by Captain Schnemo on May Thu 17, 2007 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DisBeamer » May Thu 17, 2007 6:26 am

I don't think the message of the ride should be that science and imagination can't get along either, principally because I don't think that's at all true. As you've pointed out, science and innovation don't flourish without inspiration (which doesn't happen without imagination, which I think is what the original attraction got across so well, with its 'electron beams and crystal prisms'). I -do- think, however, that the antiseptic, rote, 'now we will investigate sight, now we will investigate sound' etc etc approach is the enemy of imagination, and I think that's what they're going for with the attraction (maybe I'm giving them too much credit..).

The implementation is clunky (in its current state) and does rely on the 'bumbling eggheads can't get it right' theory (which I personally hate, being a scientist myself). And I agree the 'something goes wrong' thing is done to death, at least at this point, but my thought here isn't to redesign the whole ride from the ground up (because Lord knows there could be something better), it's just to try to dust off the idea they had and see what it could have been. There are other ways they could have gone around that, though, and kept the institute overlay. Maybe involve the audience, rather than separating them as spectators, and have it that Figment is plucking the good ideas for solving whatever problems crop up from the riders themselves. Again the recruits idea is used/overused, but I think a lot of cliched/archetypal ideas are overused because when done well, they really work. I suppose they could be test subjects though ... riding in big white lab rat cars...

I don't think it necessarily kills the re-rideability if there's a 'surprise' payoff at the end, as long as it's done well and there's something worth seeing to come back for. If the quest/overcoming difficulties pattern in itself didn't work, movies/books that did the same sort of thing wouldn't merit repeat viewings/readings. I think the key is in the details; The Haunted Mansion isn't a particularly innovative idea (and it wasn't even when it was new - roam through a haunted house, see some ghosts) but it still works and is still enjoyable even though the technology is old now, because it was really, really well done and extremely detailed. That's one of the main things I dislike about the leaning toward the 2D screens that's going on right now. There's only so much detail you can cram into the environment and have anyone be able to see it. I still think this institute idea could have been a success if it was handled better, or had a clearer vision of what they were trying to do.
Perhaps there is something Freudian going on in WDI?
It's funny (in a sad way); when I was originally typing that I was thinking it was a sad parallel to WDI today.

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Post by Captain Schnemo » May Thu 17, 2007 6:48 am

DisBeamer wrote:...Figment is plucking the good ideas for solving whatever problems crop up from the riders themselves.
That's a good idea. Imagination is about much more than problem-solving, though (as was so wonderfully shown in the original ride), so I don't really like the "test subject" idea.
I don't think it necessarily kills the re-rideability if there's a 'surprise' payoff at the end...
I don't object to surprise endings. A solid ending to a great adventure is entertaining every time.

I was referring to the "something has gone wrong" thing. That just means on future visits, people will be sort of bored in the beginning, waiting for the "good part" to start. They should be shooting for a whole ride full of good part.
I still think this institute idea could have been a success if it was handled better, or had a clearer vision of what they were trying to do.
I'm sure there's a way it could be done, but I don't think the crew at WDI has it in them to take a so-so concept and make it great. I don't see why they'd want to handicap themselves.

To me, an "Institute" for something like imagination just doesn't make any sense. Einstein always said (or at least the anecdote is frequently repeated) that he got his best ideas while shaving. Maybe they'd have a class in a giant restroom?

You can't institutionalize those "little sparks".

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Post by subsonic » May Thu 17, 2007 10:23 am

Great discussion. I really don't know what WDI thinks at times and it reminds me of re-imagineering's article about the creative talent has been weeded out for ass-kissers.
It's a real shame. I hadn't been to EPCOT for years until this January. There was no line for Journey. I was quite disappointed with the attraction. I remember loving the old version so much as a kid. There will be no reason for me to return (unless my kids want to go on it). It's hard to believe that Disney isn't taking a hard look at the lack of lines and people's complaints. Sigh.
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Post by NsDodgers » May Thu 17, 2007 11:53 am

I agree with peoplemover wholeheartedly, the track remains for all to see how a cheaply executed ride can fail. I also would like the original alien encounter back.

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Post by Magique » May Thu 17, 2007 7:55 pm

NsDodgers wrote:I agree with peoplemover wholeheartedly, the track remains for all to see how a cheaply executed ride can fail. I also would like the original alien encounter back.
Oh yeah! I only went on Alien Encounter once, and I can barely remember it.

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Post by SWHorn » May Fri 18, 2007 2:26 pm

Alien Encounter is the most blaring one to me. Man, that was a horrible change. It's funny...I enjoyed Lilo & Stitch the movie, but I just about can't watch it anymore because I hate Stitch so much.

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Post by JWG » May Fri 18, 2007 3:36 pm

This isn't so much a "change back" as "add back"

I'd like to see a World of Motion or Horizons like attraction return to Epcot. Those longer educational rides were great. I miss the Edutainment.

Horizons had to go, the building was going to go on its own with the big sink whole that developed, and Mission Space isn't bad... I guess I'm just old fashioned.
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Post by Esmeralda » May Fri 18, 2007 4:05 pm

I've been gone for a week and so many people have written! So sorry if this is a repeat, but I was just in NYC and it made me miss Timekeeper a lot.

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Post by jcodirewolf » May Sat 19, 2007 6:23 am

bbowen13 wrote: Sky buckets (not sure about the name) to WDW.
It was "The Skyway" either "to Tomorrowland" or "to FantasyLand" (depending on which side you go on.) I have to say every time I'm over by the buggy parking spot by Small World I get sad. A great fun (good place to take pictures) is not working. :(

But what would I bring back? I would like them to reopen the upstairs part of Journey into Imagination they use to have all sorts of cool toys up there. I'd replace some of them and upgrade the rest.

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Post by RiaLucia » May Wed 30, 2007 11:26 pm

Yes, bring the Country Bear Jamboree back to DL. Now that I live on the West Coast I want it here!


The first time I saw the new Tiki Room I was mortally offended, but somehow it's grown on me. Plus it's still the same show here in DL so I don't mind so much.

The Skyway!

And the Pirate photos right outside POTC. In 1991 my family and I got to dress up like pirates and have our picture taken in front of a screen. It was totally cheesy but I've always wanted to do another one, and can you imagine how popular it'd be these days with pirate-mania taking over?

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Post by Croaker » May Thu 31, 2007 11:26 am

Down with Pooh...bring back the Toad!

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Post by laurie5658 » Jun Fri 01, 2007 12:55 pm

I have another vote for The Toad!

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